Question about Limit poker.

BrianSwa · #1 08-13-05, 04:41 PM

ok everyone knows I dont do odds to well and I just started playing limit poker even though I'am at really really low limits. I have some questions about limit poker seeing as I dont have that much experience at it. Now I have seen some of Pshabi hands he has posted and I have always been like omg how did you call that thinking it was NL and no way I could of called it but I guess in limit it is different.

If any limit players are out there Id love to hear you opinions on some of the subjects im gonna touch base with. Ok so say you have a middle pair and have someone calling you to river. Say you have like 99 with a board of 632 guy that raised pre-flop puts a raise in on flop you re-raise him and he calls you down to river when a A hits. That is the only card that is above your 9-9 so you check it to him putting him on AK and he raises representing it. The question is dont you have like plenty of odds see as its limit to call this. I mean you are like 90% sure this dude is rocking AK but since you might win this 40% of the time at least dont you just have to call this?

thats really the main question I wanted to ask but would like to hear more of the limit players explain some of their thought process when it comes down to the river.

PShabi · #2 08-13-05, 05:01 PM

Okay, 99 on a 632 flop is an overpair, not middle pair.

When you check to him on the river, he's betting, not raising.

Now, the first thing I ask myself on every street of every hand is how big is the pot.

So, let's say you have 99 in MP here. You raised preflop, got 3-bet and called. 7 small bets if blinds fold out. You bet the flop, get raised, you reraise, he calls. 13 small bets. Take the rake and you conver it to 6 big bets.

Now on the turn 2 more BBs go in for 8BB. Ace hits on river, you check and he bets giving you 9 to 1 on the river.

Now, you only need to be "good" 1 out of 9 times to break even. I think in this situation you can expect to win a good deal more than 1 out of 9 times.

Call and if you lose, just know that the play will make you money over the long run.

BrianSwa · #3 08-13-05, 05:06 PM

when I said middle pair I meant pre-flop 9-9 would be a middle wired pair, sorr y didnt explain that too well. Thanks for quick response pshabi, I have always had trouble with figuring out pot odds even though I know they are sooo important in limit poker.

Talking Poker · #4 08-13-05, 11:50 PM

pshabi's response was dead on. Go pick up Winning Low Limit Hold'Em or Small Stakes Hold'em if you want to read more about pot odds... It's actually quite simple once you "get it."

The thing you need to keep in mind is to make the best LONG TERM decisions... Do that, and winning limit hold'em is easy.

BrianSwa · #5 08-14-05, 12:19 AM

thanks for suggestions, I will be sure to pick them up and thanks.

2Tone · #6 08-14-05, 12:27 AM

I had some trouble following the original post, but pshabi's advice is excellent. I'd also say that with a pair of 9s, that if I'm re-raised pre-flop, I'm NOT going to lead off with a bet once the flop hits, never mind re-raise, unless I hit my set. That's the other thing about (low) limit -- bluffing usually costs you money.

sjay2k · #7 08-14-05, 08:08 AM

LOL at the maths.

sjay2k · #8 08-14-05, 08:24 AM

By the way, If I was playing a good player, I'd bet/fold the river.

Possible results from bet/folding

1. They have Ax and raise or call, lose 1BB (50%).
2. They have 55/77/88/K6 and call, gain 1BB (12.5%).
3. They have 55/77/88/K6 and fold, no gain (12.5%).
4. They have TT/JJ/QQ and fold, gain 9BB (10%).
5. They have TT/JJ/QQ and call, lose 1BB (10%)
6. They raise you with a worse hand, lose 10BB (5%).

Compared with check/calling:

1. They have Ax and bet, lose 1BB (50%).
2. They have 55/77/88/K6 and check, no gain (15%).
3. They have 99/TT/JJ and check, no gain (15%).
4. They bet with a worse hand, gain 1BB (20%).

Any thoughts?

Talking Poker · #9 08-14-05, 10:36 AM

I have thoughts. I disagree with you check/calling numbers. I think they will bet (bluff) with a hand worse than ours a LOT of the time... I LOVE the check/call on the river with a marginal hand. I used it religiously, and it's made me a fortune.

I think this is a clear check/call situation all the way.

PShabi · #10 08-14-05, 12:42 PM

I know Brian didn't specify 6-max, but

If you're playing 6-max, this will cost you bets at best and at worst cost you big pots.

If I'm on the button and you've shown that you can raise hands like A10, K10, KJ, QJ or small pairs up front (which good players do in this game) I'll 3-bet preflop with AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, 88, and 77 all of which you're beating.

If you bet your 99 into me on the flop, I'd raise you with the 77 & 88 on this flop for sure. If you've shown that you'll be passive with strong holdings (which 99 is on this flop) I'll have no problem raising AK, AQ, or KQ here for a free card on the turn. You'll probably give it to me and that's where you start losing pots when you're caught up with "saving bets."

I play very aggressively and I admit there are times when I can be too aggressive. This isn't one of this times though.

2Tone · #11 08-14-05, 05:34 PM

Cool thread - I always appreciate threads that actually center around thinking/strategy.

As for pshabi's point, this might be the biggest difference between a full ring game and shorthanded. In my experience, even at a loose 2/4 tables, unless the player is a maniac, he's not going to three bet pre-flop with a low pair.

I'm not necessarily going to fold, but check calling makes much more sense here. If he has the inferior hand, I'll let him build the pot. If I do, I'm OK with checking it down. If I bet and he raises, I'm forced to likely throw good money after bad if I want to stay in.

I knew there was a great post on this and I went back and looked it up ... TP speaks the truth

This all said, I know I err on the side of being to tight/weak when I should probably be more tight aggressive.

Talking Poker · #12 08-14-05, 11:23 PM

Glad youl iked that post, even though I never did get around to writing that "article." I did go into more detail later in the thread though, if anyone would like to see it:

Like pshabi, I'm mainly a 6 max player, but I agree with what he's saying here. I'm betting/raising flops ALL THE TIME with my 99 overpair. It's the only way to find out where I'm at in the hand, and while it's still cheap.

Edit: P.S. Good memory!