Is this a possibility?

[Zybomb]

This question came off of the topic about Frangos folding QQ, after the pot had been opened, re raised, and re re raised preflop, before the action came to him. (Its under the Poker on TV heading if you havent seen it yet)

To quickly summarize, the pot had been been opened with a player holding 109s, reraised by a player holding KK then re-reraised by a player holding JJ. At this point the action went to Nick Frangos.

Frangos, before checking his whole cards said "Please ---- one time" indicating, give me Pocket Aces just once when the action is this strong. Now assume that Frangos was the chip leader at this point. If I recall although the pot had been raised numerous times, no one was all in yet, nor was anyone pot committed based on their stack.

If Frangos looked down at his cards, looked back up and gave a shrugging "Im all in" He basically non verbally just said I HAVE AA

Could that of picked up the pot?

[kkirk1329]

i doubt KK folds in that position the JJ might but i doubt the kings will lay down there

[Zybomb]

Not saying that I disagree with you, or that I agree either....but keep in mind Frangos basically just told the whole table if I get anything besides AA im folding here. And he doesnt fold, he goes all in... I dunno if you could have a clearer image of an exact hand than in this situation (even though here it was using that knowledge to try to be deceiving)

Also, underquestionably JJ folds, the question is KK

[kkirk1329]

i dunno i just dont see the KK folding in this situation, its just to big of a laydown to make when he could have just found a hand like QQ and felt like he could lay that down into that big of a pot

he didnt basically say hes folding anything less than AA he is just asking for a good hand in this situation, which he gets but he was obviously good enough to ditch the queens

[johnp158]

I guess this is just hypothetical, but in that specific situation, JJ was all-in

[Zybomb]

If I remember correctly, JJ was not all in, he made a reraise large enough to put the original reraiser (Lindgren) all in, but did not declare "all in" himself.

At least Im pretty sure

[kkirk1329]

well in that case if lindgren was going to be shortstacked if he folded then i say theres no way he folds, i thought lindgren had the guy with JJ covered tho because i thought lindgren knocked out the guy with JJ that hand but i wasnt payin close attention

[Zybomb]

I dont remember how large a reraise it was to put lindgren all in, I know it was definately more than double his original raise which was 120,000 if I remember.

[junYUN]

no way lindgren was laying down KK there... he was short stacked and i guarantee he calls.

[lightfungus]

Not a bad point Junyun. Because of his situation he may have been forced to call, not just was the pot large with everyone elses bets in there but he was short stacked and folding KK is tough to do. Frangos is a poker player, so he has balls, it would be up to lindgren to make a read at this point.

On the other hand, lindgren would think frangos would have to be stupid putting me all in in my situation WITHOUT the rockets. THen again frangos could WANT him to think that and that would be the move he was making. Im not sure how tight a player frangos is (relatively i mean), so i dunno. Sounds like fun poker though.

In short zybomb, i would like to see that situation for real to see what happens. If you ran the simulation a couple times i think it would end up going back and forth between KK folding and holding, but more often than not holding.

[Talking Poker]

No way would the KK fold in the hypothetical situation described above, or in the real situation from last night (I believe Lindgren and Frangos both had less chips than the JJ's bet).

I think folding KK there would be a huge mistake.

[Zybomb]

ASSUMING that no player was pot committed here, what hand beside AA could you possibly put Frangos on that would have him put his entire stack in the middle after the pot has been raised 3 times already before him. I can't see him on any hand except AA (or the nuts huge enough to front like you have AA) ESPECIALLY after his table talking "Please ---- one time!!!"

If this were Dan Harrington, making the move would that change anything?

Or is just one of those situations where youd feel u have to grit your teeth and call, saying if Im gunna get busted here it was meant to be?

[omahilo]

if Harrington did this... I dunno lol... KK might think of folding then Harrington flips up 62o lol.

I do think Lindgren was committed tho because he was the shortstack of the 3 players. GambleAB and Goldstein both had plenty of chips at the time. Goldstein raised like 200,000 and that put Lindgren allin, which he gladly called.

I think by Frangos chat he was only going to play AA and if he pushes allin then he has it IMO because pushing in with anything BUT AA with a 3 raises in front of you would be crazy unless he acts like he has AA which he could do if he knew what the chip stacks were and if he knew he had enough chips to make everyone fold.

like if this was the action at last yrs WSOP with Raymer having 15 mill compared to everyone else, he could easily go allin in this situation and act like he has the AA because he has plenty to make everyone fold and everyone else isnt short stacked to the point where they have to call.

[2Tone]

This is an easy one.

There is nothing a player can say that should get you/him to laydown KK pre-flop. If Frangos/hypothetical player really did hit his Aces, good for him. But you can't lay that down. But he’s going to have to show them to win the pot.

[omahilo]

Ive read a few interesting stories where people have folded KK preflop and the people have had aces.

Its not a impossible fold but your read will have to be exact.

[Zybomb]

I remember Phil Helmuth having a story about that

[omahilo]

Yeah Phil has it in his book 'Bad Beats and Lucky Draws'.