Why o Why?!?!?!?!

tazmision89 · #1 03-13-05, 10:51 AM

LIVE CASH GAME - NO LIMIT 5/10 - FULL RING (10 PLAYERS)

CHIP COUNT - $1,475

POSITION - SMALL BLIND

CARDS DEALT - Ad,Ks (BIG SLICK)

POSITION 1 - CALLS $10
POSITION 2 - CALLS $10
POSITION 3 - FOLDS
POSITION 4 - FOLDS
POSITION 5 - CALLS $10
POSITION 6 - FOLDS
POSITION 7 - FOLDS
POSITION 8 - FOLDS
POSITION 9 (ME) - RAISES TO $50
POSITION 10 (BB) - FOLDS

POSITION 1 - FOLDS
POSITION 2 - CALLS $40 MORE TO MAKE IT $50
POSITION 5 - CALLS $40 MORE TO MAKE IT $50

POT - $170

FLOP SHOWS - 6s,Kc,9s

POSITION 9 (ME) - CHECKS
I check to get a feel of who has what
POSITION 2 - CHECKS
POSITION 5 - BETS $50
Put him on TP/MP based on the small bet

POSITION 9 (ME) - CALLS $50
I could have raised here but I was confident I was in strong position
POSITION 2 - CALLS $50 (LIMPS)
At this point I put him on the straight/flush draw

POT - $320

TURN SHOWS - 2d

POSITION 9 (ME) - BETS 2.5x's THE POT ($800)
POSITION 2 - CALLS (ALL-IN $675)
Yeah!!....Huh??.....Wait.....What????.....
POSITION 5 - FOLDS

POSITION 9 - TPTK
POSITION 2 - 7s,8s (STRAIGHT / FLUSH DRAW!!!!!!!)

POT - $1,670

RIVER SHOWS - 5s

POSITION 2 WINS $1,670 WITH STRAIGHT FLUSH 5 TO 9

Now my question here is, what in the hell was this guys thinking calls a 2.5 pot size bet on just a draw???????? I could have easily betted on the flop with a pot size bet and scared everyone away, but I wanted to see what everyone was on. Maybe my curiousity got the best of me, but no REAL poker player would have ever made a crazy call like that. Especially for all your chips on a draw!!!!

I have the worst 2 weeks. I am playing really good poker but I just keep running in to people like this.

Crazy!!!!

ChipFish · #2 03-13-05, 11:14 AM

Sooooooo.. The Pocket Rockets didn't hold up for you eh?

Seriously though, Tough beat...
Reload and try and hit him again.

tazmision89 · #3 03-13-05, 11:23 AM

ARGHHHH!!! I STINK!!!! LOL.....

I'm still on TILT cuz of this hand.............

omahilo · #4 03-13-05, 12:05 PM

Alright I dont play these high levels but here is my opinion...

I have a question first, would you of called him if he moved allin on the flop?

Here is my thoughts... With a huge draw like that and actually being a 53-47 favorite after the flop, He should of went allin instead of betting $50 and more than likely took the pot down unless you make the call.

Well I guess by sucking out he won like 2K but thats not the point lol.

tazmision89 · #5 03-13-05, 12:12 PM

I probably would not have called if he moved in after the flop because all I had was TPTK and no possible draw. However, it became apparent that all he was on was a draw and when the turn came out blank, well............. I did not hesitate to push it all in.

I played the cards and the person. Unfortunately, he was playing on a prayer. You will run in to these fools every now and then, but like I said, it seems as though I have been running in to them the last couple of weeks.

Now here's the questions for you..............Would you risk your chips on a one card draw?

omahilo · #6 03-13-05, 08:58 PM

I love the play after the turn... the red two is like the biggest possible blank in the deck. I was just curious about the flop... since he did have a huge draw and if he played it allin.

Talking Poker · #7 03-15-05, 01:12 AM

Interesting hand. A few things:

-He had a monster draw, so big, in fact, that he was a favorite after the flop. Any time you have 14 outs and 2 cards to come, youre about even. An open ended straight flush draw is 15 outs.

On the turn, he was behind, of course, but he still had 15 outs. There was $995 in the pot (giving you back the extra since he was going all in) and it was $675 for him to call. That's almost 3:2 the pot was laying him. With 15 outs, he's a 31:15 dog to win the pot, or about 2:1. So yeah, the call was bad, but it's not the worst al I've ever seen, by any means. Maybe he was tired. Or frustrated. Or in the mood to gamble... you ust never know.

The real question here, IMO, is what in the heck were you doing betting 2.5x the pot with TPTK??? Were you that sure of your read? No chance you could be up against a set? I on't get the play at all. With a bet that big, I would think you're only going to get called by a hand better than your own - well, typically. Obviously, this hand was an exception.

Also, you said you checked the flop to get a feel for who had what. Huh? I hate this play.... You need to BET to find out where you stand in a hand. It wouldn't have mattered here, probably, but still...

Kurn · #8 03-15-05, 09:10 AM

Obviously, his call on the turn was wrong (thus a call you want him to make). However, the way you played the hand may have convinced him that he had more outs than he really did.

Preflop: You raise is too small. Make it at least 75 to go. You bet 50 into a 45 pot, giving a single caller better than 2:1. Once one player calls that, it's correct for the others to come along.

Flop: Unless you've been betting the flop when you hit and checking when you miss all night, you're risking giving all the draws on earth a free shot at you. You have to bet out here.

Turn: The problem with overbetting the turn is it now looks like you're trying to buy the pot with something like AQ. If he thinks that's the case, he believes he has 21 outs and is a 6:5 dog getting nearly 3:2 from the pot.

Now here's the crux of the matter. What you've done is forced him to make an FTOP error by calling. Great, right? You win 2/3 of the time you're called. But if you're going to whine the 1/3 of the time you lose, play the hand differently.

tazmision89 · #9 03-15-05, 03:49 PM

I know my mistake was on the flop. And since then...well I have gathered up my marbles and have taken a break from playing (3 days).

After reviewing everything, I fucked up my play by not betting the flop and making it a pot size bet. However, with that being said, after the turn came blank, I was very confident on my read and that is why I pushed my chips in.

Was it a bad play by me on the flop? Absolutely. Was it a horrible call on the guys part? Absolutely.

But when I did the math, I can not totally blame the guy for making the call (9 spades, 3 fives, 3 tens = 15 outs of 28 cards left = 53% favorite). The odds were in his favor to make his hand.

Hopefully, my break from cards will help me play better tonight.

Talking Poker · #10 03-15-05, 04:12 PM

Yes... GL tonight.

But as you said, the call, while not GOOD, wasn't THAT bad.

junYUN · #11 03-15-05, 07:04 PM

thats definatly a tough call for him to have to make with only one card to come, and i probably would have laid it down 9 times out of 10. however, in this situation, you really seem like you're trying to "steal" the pot with your 2.5x raise on the turn...so this instance might be the 1/10 time i call this.

Talking Poker · #12 03-15-05, 08:58 PM

Yes, it does seem like a steal, but that doesn't change much. You know you don't have the best hand right now, and your outs remain the same.... Unless you think he completely missed with AQ and you have 6 more outs. Then I think the call is not only justified, but correct.

Kurn · #13 03-16-05, 08:49 AM

Huh?? 28 cards? He has 15 cards that make his hand out of 46 unseen cards (a 2.07:1 dog). The only cards he can count as not being left in the deck are the 2 in his hand and the 4 he can see on the board. Your calcultion makes the erroneous assumption that none of the cards he needs were dealt to other players in the hand. Where an unseen card is (dealt to another player or left in the deck) is irrelevant to your odds calculation. An unseen card is an unseen card is an unseen card.

I hope that's not how you normally calculate your outs.

tazmision89 · #14 03-17-05, 02:55 PM

Yes that is based on the assumption that none of his cards were dealt. And that is best case scenario. If you calculate 15 out of 46 unseen cards, of course that percentage will fall drastically. Some where around the area of 35%. Which would make him a 2 to 1 underdog going to the river. But I guess his feeling was that 1 out of 3 times he is going to make his hand.

Whatever.......It's over. And I need to get my groove back on.

Talking Poker · #15 03-17-05, 03:25 PM

Don't take this wong, but you claim to play professionally, right? I would think you would know how to correctly calculate pot odds... This is the first time I've ever seen anyone talk refer to 28 cards left or even suggest that the unknown cards dealt to other people should somehow be discounted. If you guys were palying cards face up, sure, but in the real world...