Red Sox to Boycott Japan Trip

[Kurn]

And thus forfeit their 1st 2 regular season games?



Wow.

[Talking Poker]

I was watching this on ESPN this morning... crazy.

FWIW, I think the players are doing the right thing, and think management would be completely stupid to not pony up what they promised for everyone and allow this trip to not happen.

[PShabi]

I'm torn on this one.

On one hand, I applaud the solidarity of the team.

On the other hand...."Wahhhhhhhhhh."

[Talking Poker]

The players aren't doing this for themselves - they would still be getting their $40k bonuses. They are doing it for the coaches and staff... and for those guys, $40k is a lot of money.

[PShabi]

From the article, I understood that it was MLB and not Sox management who renegged on this. If it was the Sox org itself, I don't think they would be asking Oakland about it.

[PShabi]

It's "2/5" of their salary. So, they make $100k, but they want $140k, because their duties are not including a one-week business trip, where they could feasibly go to Japan and get by w/o spending a single dime out of their own pocket if they wanted to.

I totally understand getting your money, but still...."Wahhhhhhhh."

You know?

[Kurn]

No, I don't know. It's not "wahh" at all. In fact, its not the coaches who are complaining. Its the players saying it isn't fair to the coaches.

Forget your jealousy over how much these guys make. They have a job where the only days off they get during the spring and summer are when it rains. They spend a minimum of half their work year away from their families. Yeah, its baseball, not football or basketball, but the job is still physically grueling.

A short trip to the other side of the world may be an adventure to me and you, but its just more down time on an airplane to them, and for what? So MLB can make more money off the Japanese market.

The $40 K payout to the players is a token, but it would be meaningful to the coaches. MLB stands to make a lot of scratch from marketing inroads into the world's 4th or 5th largest consumer economy. No reason for them to get cheap.

Good for the Sox players!

[Talking Poker]

I am in complete agreement with Kurn here.

I have no idea how you can see the players saying, "Hey - that's not fair for the coaches and staff. These guys deserve bonuses too" as "Wahhhhhh." They are doing what they think is right for someone else - not for themselves.

And yeah, when you are talking about 2/5 of someone's salary, that's a lot of money.

I'd be interested to hear GTDawg's take on this.

[PShabi]

I applaud the players for standing up for the coaching staff. You think the coaches aren't complaining? Not out loud, they've got the players to do that for them. And they make $100k/year and aren't even playing.

Let's say a teacher makes $40k/year. They get hired to take a senior group on a trip to DC for a week. They deserve $16k for it? No way in hell.

Now, if it was "promised" to them, they deserve it. I agree with that. But for the last time....."Wahhhhhhhhh."

[PShabi]

They aren't losing 2/5 of their salary. They are losing a "bonus" (not exactly, but close enough) that adds another 40%.

[Kurn]

"deserve" is irrelevant. People are never paid what they "deserve" nor should they be. Labor is a market. people get paid what value their employer places on their labor, which is 100% an economic decision and 0% judgmental on some "higher" moral concept.

[PShabi]

Fair enough.

The way this whole thing sounds, is that someone in management misinformed the coaches about what they would be getting for the trip. I have a very hard time believing that MLB would reneg. Also, if they were renegging, then I'd expect Oakland to be upset as well. Oakland's response to the Sox sounds like, "No, we're not getting any money, were we supposed to?" This is my assuming, obv, but it seems weird.

To me, it sounds like someone in the Sox brass assumed something that wasn't true and now the players/coaches are pissed off. The Sox could pay the coaches if they wanted to, right?

Anyway, I'll bet they play those games in Japan, one way or another. What odds you want?

[Kurn]

Here's what this whole thing sounds like to me.

Remember, MLB is and has always been about which group of inmates (owners or players) controls the asylum. Recent history shows that the players usually win.

1. The players NEVER wanted to make this trip. From their point of view, its too much travel, too much of a distraction, and too alien an environment to play games that count, but ultimately, enough got talked into it that they voted to go (not unanimously)

2. MLB then decided to throw the players a bone - the $40,000. For most, that's not much more than marginal additional work for their tax accountant, but you never turn down money.

3. At some point along the line, somebody told the coaching staff that they'd get the same money, and later it turned out they wouldn't. Miscommunication? An honest error? A change of heart? We may never know.

4. Now the players feel that MLB embarrassed them (apparently so does Francona). If this were purely financial, the players could just vote to contribute some amount for the coaching staff and everybody could be happy, but considering the history of MLB, it can't be that simple.

So what we're left with is yet the next chapter in the soap opera that is MLB. And don't think for a minute that MLB's position on the steroid issue has nothing to do with this. I'm sure fehr, et. al. think ownership has hung them out to dry on that issue, so you know the Union is at least tacitly behind the players on this.

[PShabi]

[Talking Poker]

Shabi...

Say the school board came to your team and suggested you go play a couple of games in India. You don't want to go to India and your players don't want to go to India, but this would be a really good thing for the school board. So, they tell you that you will all be given some amount of money - whatever 40% of your salary worked out to be. Now you vote on it and agree (not unanimously) to go play the games in India.

The day you are supposed to leave, you find out that YOU aren't going to be getting paid an extra dime for this trip. You of course are still planning to go though, because it's in the best interest of your players and the school board that you love so much for screwing you over. But the players learn what is going on and are outraged. They insist that they aren't going on the trip unless you get paid what was promised to you.

Are you seriously telling me that your reaction to the players doing this (or that their parents or classmates or anyone else's reaction) should be to say: "Waaaaaaahhhhhhhh?"

Come on.

[Talking Poker]

As someone who is a Coach for their profession, I'm really surprised that you have pretty much the opposite reaction of everyone else in regards to this.

From the article you linked to:

-----

If the game had wound up being canceled, the Boston players said that they were prepared to sign autographs for all of the fans on both foul lines. It never came to that.

"These guys are outstanding guys, they're standup guys," Red Sox bench coach Brad Mills said of the players. "They do what's right. That's what makes them great ballplayers as well."

Even the Blue Jays were touched by the lengths the Red Sox went to fight for their staff.

"You don't expect to see that, but I was kind of glad it happened and I was kind of impressed with those guys," said Blue Jays manager John Gibbons. "Not only are they a very talented team, they've got something special over there. That's a team. They stuck their necks out for the coaching staff -- those guys they admire and stand by --- and that helps us all. There's only two teams that can get away with that: Boston and New York. That's good to see."

Youkilis spent time during the pregame hours discussing the situation with Vernon Wells, who is the player rep for Toronto. The Jays' players were understanding of the situation and didn't balk at the game starting later than scheduled.

Red Sox right-hander Curt Schilling had made it clear how important the issue is to the players.

"They're part of this team," Schilling said of Francona and the coaches. "They're as important as the players in our mind."
Red Sox hitting coach Dave Magadan was touched by the support from the players.

"To see how the players backed us and how they feel about the work that we do, that meant a lot," Magadan said. "It means a lot. Sometimes we feel like you can have a thankless job, but when things like that are done, you really appreciate and get a feeling for how the players feel about us."

Francona said it was his understanding that the managers and coaching staffs of the Yankees and Rays received stipends for their season-opening trip to Tokyo in 2004.

To Francona, the matter was a lot more about the coaches than himself.
"For a coach, this is, in some cases, two-fifths of their salary for the year," Francona said. "This is a big deal. I don't agree that coaches are second-class citizens. That has never sat well with me, ever."
-----

Not exactly "Waaaaaahhhhh" - IMO, anyway. I applaud the Sox players for how they handled this.

[PShabi]

Tough comparison. My stipend is less than 8% of my total income for the year. I work all year as a coach. I make WELL UNDER minimum wage as a coach. If I walked into work on Monday, and they said, "Sorry, Phil. There's been some budget cuts. We can't pay you to be our coach anymore, but you can still do it for free," I'd take the job as soon as the last word came out of their mouths.

Teaching is my profession. It pays the bills. Coaching is my "2nd job" that barely makes me any money, but it improves every aspect of my life and in turn improves the lives of the kids I'm around.

I'd love to coach D1 college ball someday. There are plenty of stories about guys making it to that level via the same path I'm on right now. If it happens, great. If not, I'm happy right where I'm at.

[Talking Poker]

That's great, and you know I wish you the best of luck... would love to see you coaching D1 someday.

But for analogy sake, pretend your pay was based on your coaching and you got a small bonus for teaching (which you still chose to do for whatever reason). Or just pretend we are talking about 40% of your teacher's salary. Either way, you should see the point.

[PShabi]

They weren't losing 40% of their salary. They were not receiving a "bonus" that was 40% extra! Of course if I was being swindled out of 40% of my base pay, I'd be pissed.

My whole thing was:

1) It's not like it's "extra" work, other than the getting to and from part. It's actually cool to get to go to Japan for work, at no cost, imo.

2) To me, the odds of MLB telling them they would get it, then going back on it were very small. As was stated, it was probably a miscommunication of something that was blown out of proportion. I know how things can travel around an office, or a high school. I imagine it's the same way in a big league clubhouse. Rumors swirl, but whatever the reason, I was skeptical that they were truthfully "owed" anything.

3) I appreciate the togetherness between the players and coaches, and I truthfully understand there motives. But.........I still say "wahhhhhhhhhhhhh" to some extent because of #s (1 and 2). Fine, I'll reduce it to a "wah" because I'd do the same thing if I was them.

Kurn said jealousy before, but I'm definitely not jealous. I envy their situation, sure, but jealousy is different, imo. I'm never really "jealous" of anything in my life.

"Male's shouldn't be jealous, that's a female trait."

[GTDawg]

First, a few things I've gathered from the situation (I actually called Bobby because of something different today and I asked him about his feelings):

These ideas are usually presented by the team media director or someone from MLB in the middle of last year. From my understanding, a conference call was held with Francona, Schilling, Youkolis, sox brass, and maybe a few others...dates were talked about, compensation, etc etc...at this point it was tossed around that everybody would be compensated (players, coaches, staff, etc).

Bobby was picked to coach the all-star team that went to Japan a few years ago and I remember them talking about this the next year (it was the off season before my first year I think). Every staff member from Andruw to the trainers were paid the same 25k or whatever to go.

At some point over the last few weeks, it was relayed that only the players would be getting compensated and not all the staff members. This was something that (for whatever reason) was unknown to all of Red Sox team staff. Francona actually has been trying to have a dialogue about the situation and he could not get a response from MLB up until yesterday. When it came down to it, things were finally made public when the Red Sox had their team meeting this morning.

Every team that has gone to Japan since the Mets in 2000 has been compensated (all staff members going on the trip).

For reference, the Red Sox bullpen catcher makes 40k a year...so, this was a big thing.

From what I gathered from Bobby, everybody on the staff had pretty much spent the money cause they had no reason to believe they weren't getting the bonus.

------
1) It's not like it's "extra" work, other than the getting to and from part. It's actually cool to get to go to Japan for work, at no cost, imo.

It actually is kinda like extra work. It is how many hours on a plane. A few exhibition games. A few clinics. All sorts of extra press. Two real games. Then they go back to LA and have 3 exhibition games in the LA Colusium. Then 2/3 games in Oakland. They are away from Boston for 19 days. Add to that, it is beyond retarded to have 2 real games, then 3 exhibition games, then the rest of the season. All while flying back and forth across the globe.

To me, the odds of MLB telling them they would get it, then going back on it were very small. As was stated, it was probably a miscommunication of something that was blown out of proportion. I know how things can travel around an office, or a high school. I imagine it's the same way in a big league clubhouse. Rumors swirl, but whatever the reason, I was skeptical that they were truthfully "owed" anything.

While this is most definitely the case, just like HS...every team that has played in Japan either as exhibition or real games has been compensated (every person that has gone on the trip). Trainers. Extra coaches. Players. The manager. That's why everybody was mad. Francona spoke with the teams that went in the previous years and every person on the trip was compensated.

And from what I understand, that's how it was sold to the Red Sox last year, as well.

I totally understand getting your money, but still...."Wahhhhhhhh."

You know?

It's kinda tough to take this attitude. I mean, many of them make a few hundred thou for coaching a bunch of major league baseball players for 8/9 months a year. But...they don't want to spend time away from their family any more than the next guy. And, if they can avoid flying 8000 miles right before the beginning of the season...they'd really like to avoid it.

And yes, they could probably go the whole trip without spending more than cabfair and maybe a few meals would cost. However, it was sold to the team as people getting compensation and everybody else before them got compensation.

[Kurn]

In the end, I'm glad they worked things out.

To underscore something GTDawg said:

if they can avoid flying 8000 miles right before the beginning of the season...they'd really like to avoid it.


If you've never flown a long way for a short business trip, you have no idea how tough it can be. I once went to Australia to host a 3-day business conference and, though I enjoyed my 4 1/2 days Down Under, most of it was work and the travel was brutal. Boston - Gold Coast is 30 hours door-to-door.

[lightfungus]

I just moved into the New England sports area. Boston fans are like roaches around here...but they talk too.

GTDawg: Are you ball boyin it again? Or is it time for the real world ?

[GTDawg]

I might go to a few games and hang out/work. I have my security badge and media lot parking pass.

But, I am real world jobbing it...