Poker Cheating

[melioris]

check out this thread at . The OP should be required reading for anyone who plays poker.

Other than Gavin Smith's pseudo-endorsement of cheating in the linked interview, Erik Lindgren is the first named pro outed (from a seemingly reliable source) for "ghosting". More names should be coming.

Iggy over at had a pretty concerning the UB scandal, and possible AP situation. The letter linked in the blog post comes from Gank, one of the handful of people who did the investigative work that broke the scandal, ie he probably is reliable which is shocking considering what he says.

[Talking Poker]

Awesome post in the 2+2 thread. Thanks for the link. Props to Greg Raymer for what he said and props to the players at the PCA for refusing to play with JJProdigy. Cheaters need to be ousted, banned, and shunned. It's the only way to prevent (or at least decrease) this sort of behavior in the future.

Being out of town with limited online time, can someone please give a quick Reader's Digest version of what's going on with UB (I read the Gank post, but I assume there is much more than that)?

Thanks.

[Invigilator]

I was very glad to see the PCA's action against JJ. Regardless of where he is in his life right now, it sends the right message

Gotta love the "I know, but I am not going to say" stance that Gavin Smith is apparently taking.

[JDMcNugent7]

I talk to alot of the higher stakes players now like 10/20 and 25/50, and seriously almost all of them have 2nd and even 3rd accounts.

I feel like it happens way more than the average person knows about, and i feel like it's almost the same way as using something like HGH in baseball, where everyone does it b/c at the time it wasn't technically illegal but they know it's wrong and know they shouldnt do it but do it to get ahead anyway.

At the end of poker I want to be able to say I never did anything shady to earn my $ so I just decided I'm never going to have a 2nd account or use friends or anything.

[Invigilator]

This is one of those things where "tip of the ice-berg" doesn't even begin to cover it. Time to break out the beer and the popcorn

This is just the poker version of the popular mentality in society: If people don't die, or you don't get caught, then how wrong can it be?

[helmuths henchman]

Lets say one of us got caught would be banned by all sites or the one that caught us?

[jillaj]

most likely only the one that caught you.

[Wes]

this is way way way different than what JJprodigy does/did.

[JDMcNugent7]

ya but its still wrong i think

[GTDawg]

HGH and steroid use is not as rampant as most people seem to believe.

I'm not saying that it isn't there...but it's not the OMG EVERYBODY IS USING IT BASEBALL IS FULL OF CHEATERS that some people seem to believe.

[Kurn]

First of all, use of performance enhancing drugs is not in the same class of wrongdoing as multi-accounting and ghosting in online poker. The latter is much worse.

If there existed no rules in online poker against playing more than one account in a tourney, would a rational person think it was ethically OK? On the other hand, athletes utilize medical and pharmaceutical technology to recover more quickly and/or enhance their performance all the time. Cortizone shots, surgery, Laser vision improvement. When the "steroid era" began, they certainly weren't breaking any written rules, and if you've read Jim Bouton's "Ball Four", you're aware that amphetamines were rampant in major league clubhouses in the 50's and 60's. Is Willie Mays any less a "cheater" because the drugs he used to attempt to enhance his performance weren't as effective as those used by Barry Bonds? Philosophical question, I guess.

Poker is a different story. Collusion is an underhanded way to cheat people out of their money. Every player risks his own money under a basic assumption of fairness.

The word "cheating" has been throw around in a few different non-analagous situations recently regarding rule breaking. Maybe its a failure of language.

Is JJProdigy a cheater? Sure looks like it.

Was Barry Bonds a cheater? Assuming he did use steroids, I'm still conflicted on the use of the word, but lean towards "yes." Here's one to go along with this one(though not about drugs). Was Gaylord Perry a cheater?

Clearly I don't think the word applies to the Patriots. I'd like to think I'd still hold that same opinion were I not a fan, but I understand that that makes me not an unbiased source. So lets look an an analagous situation from MLB. Was Bobby Thompson a cheater in 1951(Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about)?

On the other end of the scale, would anybody call O-line players who frequently get called for holding cheaters? (we'll ignore the fact that refs don't call it anywhere near as much as they used to)

At what point does breaking a rule make one a cheater, and at what point does overuse of the word devalue the stigma that label places on someone?

[GTDawg]

"First of all, use of performance enhancing drugs is not in the same class of wrongdoing as multi-accounting and ghosting in online poker. The latter is much worse."

Why is that thought to be much worse? I would say that doing something against the rules to gain an advantage is against the rules and it's cheating. End of story.

Is it because everybody knows people bend the rules in sports? Because people have been cheating at baseball in little ways for a century? Because everybody wants to believe that people are naturally good and fair when playing poker?

I would like to hear your reasons for saying one is worse than the other.

About the amphetamines, I've talked with several coaches from that era and a few of them have told me the same thing, "Yeah, I tried them a few times and I played amazing. If I had kept using them, I would've had a 10 year pro career." From everything I have heard, I would say it was around...but not the rampant usage that allows people to explain away the steroid era as "it's always been done".

The rest of your post:
JJProdigy, yes
Barry Bonds, yes
Gaylord Perry, yes
Patriots, yes. Sorry bud, but there is only one reason the NFL would destroy all the evidence they recovered and that is because a superbowl was tainted. Did they cheat for a perfect season? no. But I can think of a half dozen scenarios that have happened against the Patriots/in Foxboro...that make you shake your head.
Bobby Thompson, yes. The entire team cheated for much of the season. Of course, it didn't solely make them recover from a 7.5 game deficit to get to the playoff, and it is still damn hard to hit a homerun even if you do know what is coming.
The o-line question is different, I think. Sure, they are going against the rules to try and gain an advantage. But, is that the fault of the refs or the players that it is not called? The other situations...it was being hidden because the players know it's bad and they'll get caught. Is holding really being hidden or do the refs just not call it as much as they should?

"At what point does breaking a rule make one a cheater, and at what point does overuse of the word devalue the stigma that label places on someone?"

It will always be a point of personal preference long after the governing body has made their decision and the event is long past.

[Kurn]

This:

The o-line question is different, I think. Sure, they are going against the rules to try and gain an advantage. But, is that the fault of the refs or the players that it is not called?

appears to contradict this:

I would say that doing something against the rules to gain an advantage is against the rules and it's cheating. End of story.


Either that or your saying that linemen who hold are only cheaters if their caught.

How many times have you hear an announcer call a pass interference penalty a "good" penalty because the receiver would've scored had the db not tacked him on the 20 while the ball was in the air.

It seems here (and I agree with this) that there are situations in a game where blantantly doing something against the rules is the tactically correct decision. Is that cheating? No. Its intelligent game play.

Lets use a baseball analogy. 3rd base coaches use complex signals. Why? because they know their signals are visible to the opposition *and* the opposition is going to attempt to break the code. Do you think that by watching the opposing 3rd base coach, a team is "cheating"?

To me, "cheating" means doing something so outside the normal parameters of the game that it alters the fundamental integrity of the game. Better phrased, cheating implies underhanded tactics. I guess by that definition, performance enhancing drugs are cheating (but then cortisone shots are cheating, too).

Clearly, multiaccounting and ghosting *do* compromise the integrity of a poker tournament. Thus those who do it are cheaters.

I am also 100% certain that observing and interpreting visible signals, even through the use of videotape does not compromise game integrity and thus is not cheating. Unless we're all going to be soccer moms and say, "OK kids, they're sending in signals, everybody close your eyes."

Gaylord Perry? Yeah, he cheated.

[GTDawg]

"To me, "cheating" means doing something so outside the normal parameters of the game that it alters the fundamental integrity of the game. Better phrased, cheating implies underhanded tactics. I guess by that definition, performance enhancing drugs are cheating (but then cortisone shots are cheating, too)."

Now...the only thing...

"I am also 100% certain that observing and interpreting visible signals, even through the use of videotape does not compromise game integrity and thus is not cheating"

=========
There are rules set in place that do not allow the taping of opposing teams. It's clearly stated in NFL rules on what is allowed to be photographed/video taped. The actions of the Patriots clearly broke those rules and were far and beyond the normal parameters set in place and break the fundamental integrity of the game. You are contradicting yourself in discussing how I am contradicting myself.

Surely you remember the Dolphins having game footage of Tom Brady with audio and the "cheating scandal" that went along with that. It was just audio of the game. I'm sure some broadcasts have half of that stuff on TV as long as they have those giant coned microphones and that cool camera that hangs above the offensive huddle. I doubt you can make a case that this was cheating and what the Patriots did was not cheating.

As for the baseball thing, I'm not really sure how invasive it is and, in most ways, it is self-policed. I have never once heard a conversation that involved the signs of an opposing team and what they may or may not be. And, I've never seen/heard of an opposing team being accused of such things. Now, I have seen discussions of opposing pitchers tipping off their signs and there are a dozen or so pitchers in the majors that I can predict what they are going to throw while watching the game on TV.

But the act of stealing signs...at what point are we going to tell the mean people to stop looking while I'm telling Ricky Henderson to steal? I do not associate looking at the third base coach with video taping a defensive coordinator and then analyzing the video tape at half time.

Cortizone shots are an interesting topic. They do not increase performance above and beyond what would be there if the player was healthy. However, they do allow players to play at points when they would not naturally be able to play. I am not really sure how I feel about the use of those shots. Part of me thinks that it is ok since they don't gain an unnatural competitive advantage since they are just going to be playing at the level previous (even that is a stretch). But, it does allow players the ability to participate well past what naturally would've occurred. It's definitely a gray line draw directally to the use of HGH to recover from severe injuries.

However, the use of anabolic steroids and HGH does, in most cases, allow the player to play at an ability above and beyond some natural ability that he used to have.

===========

Also, in a game with umpires and referrees, where you can't really call penalties on the opponents yourself and are instead forced to rely on the judgement of others...then you really are only cheating if the judge determines that you are cheating.

If a player cheats in the forest and noone is around to be a referree and blow his whistle, is he still cheating?

[melioris]

one of the things i love about starting threads is seeing where they go. It is why I like it here. 2+2 all you get is playground mentality, but here you get good stuff.

But I got to say WTF guys? Yes, it might be fun to have a little mental masturbation getting esoteric over the nature and definition of cheating, but in this case i think it only serves to obfuscate a very important issue to all of us. We are truly at a crossroads with online poker in our country and issues of cheating can be used to entrench voters and legislators against online poker when they are needed to actually change the law. I was hoping the WTO would do it for us, but we can't be sure of that. So please, start a thread about cheating in sport and what is and isn't cheating, hell I would like to contribute to that discussion, but lets keep this one relevant to the OP.

[Wes]

There needs to a Russian league where everyone gets all juiced up from everything. I want to see freaks that can hit a ball 9000 feet, not regular humans damnit.

[Kurn]

While I don't disagree with you. we all have to be cognizant of the fact that where there are large sums of money up for grabs, there will be people willing to push the envelope to get them. It is crucial that the online sites get out front and let their customers (and by way of them, the legislators) know that they are taking all appropriate steps to make it harder to circumvent the rules.

They have much more at risk than we do.

[Kurn]

I agree. To be perfectly honest, steroids and the '97 HR chase > no steroids and no McGwire/Sosa theater.

Apologies to Henry Aaron. If anyone has been harmed by the juice era, its Hammerin' Hank.

[Kurn]

I asked those two questions above because when the story 1st broke, Belichick made a statement (which he never repeated) that he felt what the Pats had done was not a violation of the commissioner's memo. I initially took that to mean they were taping for archive and not for use in that game.

Legalistic hair-splitting? Maybe.

One other thing, and I have not heard any mention of anything like this on the radio up here, but I would not be surprised if, after the Pro Bowl, the Patriots mount a legal challenge to the penalty exacted on them by the league.

[Invigilator]

I think "cheating" and "rule breaking" are not specific enough here. The word that comes to mind is unethical.

What multi-accounters are doing is unethical.

The existence of a penalty system in a sport addresses (seems to make the statement that...) doing certain things that are wrong, but not necessarily unethical. i.e. 5 for fighting in hockey, timeout for swearing at the WSOP.

"Underhanded" starts to touch on it. That which is concealed and unseen is an unethical effort. Emery boards being used by pitchers comes to mind.

Shifting the focus just to poker, multi-accounting, chip dumping, blah blah blah, all of these examples seem unethical, and worthy of severe penaly. (like poker sites sharing names of known multi-accounters. Yeh, that would be sweet).

[Zybomb]

Ob what?

Ok, I obviously can't get read this thread anymore

[Reel Deal]

Fancy word syndrome... FTW!

[melioris]

come on words are your business, I totally defer.

[Wes]

hahaha what an awesome word to be confused on

[Reel Deal]

Here's who I defer to...