Rules Question

Zybomb · #1 03-09-07, 05:47 AM

Three players are left in the hand on the turn. Player 1 bets Player 2 calls... Player 3 still has a hand but has placed it in a stupid way so its hard to see. The dealer deals the river. Player 1 checks, the next player thinks, then the dealer sees that Player 3 still has cards so he holds action....

Now I know if the 3rd player calls, the river is shuffled back in and the deck is reshuffled.... but what happens when the 3rd player decides to fold.... does the original river card that we've seen (the natural river) remain.... or is it still shuffled back in?

I was in an unfortunate situation today in a $600 pot with an opponent obviously drawing and he was given 2 rivers in which to hit (the 2nd river he hit!) despite the fact that the 3rd opponent still folded. I called a floor ruling and it was said that if the river card had been seen it must be shuffled back in regardless.... i didnt think this was correct but a few other ppl sitting said it was that way.... Is this correct?

ChipFish · #2 03-09-07, 01:21 PM

Up to the 3rd player to protect his action.
His hand is dead, no new card.

Talking Poker · #3 03-09-07, 01:45 PM

Well, this is wrong. I know that much.

But as for if the river card should be reshuffled since Player 3 folded anyway, I'm not 100% sure. I know it seems like it wouldn't matter, but I believe it does. I'm almost certain that it needs to be reshuffled and the action moved back to Player 3 on the turn, who then folds and you move on with the hand - with a new river card.

Yeah, it's not the river card that was "supposed" to be there. But this of it like online poker - it was a continuous shuffle!!!

GTDawg · #4 03-09-07, 02:10 PM

I know you're joking...but c'mon...you don't see all the other river cards FWIW

Zybomb · #5 03-10-07, 12:01 AM

This "continuous shuffle" cost me a $600 pot when player 2s gutshot completed instead of the river blanking like it was supposed to.

I went off on the dealer afterwards, basically telling him he needs to fuckin pay attention and that there was 10Gs on the table... I then told the floor i wasnt playing at a table that he dealt at ever again (i will, i was jus annoyed and wanted to prove a point)

I guess the fact that there was action on the river (I checked and my opponent basically was in the process of checking behind when the dealer noticed player 3) doesnt change matters at all?

ChipFish · #6 03-10-07, 12:36 AM

Ok, Not arguing, just asking:
What happens if in original example player 1 bets the river?
I was under the impression that player 3's hand would be ruled dead.

If this is true, why is this different?
If wrong, sounds like a good angle shoot opportunity for the few times it gets through.

Robbr25 · #7 03-10-07, 02:24 AM

I would think that once the dealer realized that #3 jad not made his decision yet he/she would pull the river card, let the #3 player make his/her decision then shuffle the rest of the cards and deal the river.
But that is what I think is fair, not necessarily the rules.

Talking Poker · #8 03-10-07, 02:46 AM

I don't know why Player 3s hand would ever be ruled dead. Well, not "ever" - I mean, he can't just showdown his cards without having to put any more money into the pot... I guess I don't understand why he didn't speak up SHORTLY after the dealer flipped the river card - not waiting for action in front of him. And it's weird that NO ONE noticed for, what, 30 seconds or however long it took.....

I guess his hand could be ruled dead if he didn't show it until the showdown or something else where it was obvious he was trying to be deceptive.... but I think if he was concentrating and didn't notice the dealer move on with the hand and then the first player(s) acted quickly on the river, he should have a chance to act (on the turn) still if he speaks up.

Sorry this is rambly. Don't feel like putting together pretty sentences.