Ethics Question

[GTDawg]

I don't understand why that question would signal the end of a conversation. Logically, it is fair to wonder how you view ethical and moral wrongs.

Surely, you do not see the act of taking someone else's money as an ethical wrong. They are doing so at their own free will. And, they are doing it with the knowledge that they may lose it.

However, you are taking someone else's money for your own. Your gain is dependent on someone else's loss.

That is a basic assessment of the ethical and moral implications of such an act.

==============
To add...I figured the whole taking an addicts' money and donating to charity would be the point you ended the conversation. I didn't think the throw away question at the top of the post would do it.

[Kurn]

Meh. No more unethical than wearing a disguise to the poker room if you feel the regulars aren't giving you enough action.

[Talking Poker]

What about sunglasses? Are those unethical? What about pretending to be drunk when you're not (I know someone who does this very effectively in live play)?

I think the point here is that poker is a game full of deception. Many forms of deceptions are generally accepted (check raising, playing with players that you know are bad, wearing sunglasses, etc) by virtually everyone. At the other extreme would be the ZeeJustin multiple accounts thing and playing more than one of them in the same tourney. I think it is ridiculous that anyone could argue this to not be unethical (Poker Stars agreed with me), but Justin and many other people actually did. I find that stunning.

I guess it comes down to each individual's personal opinion. For me, I draw the line with the rules. I'm going to use every edge that I can that that is within the rules (PT/PaHUD/etc), but I'm not going to break the rules (multiple accounts/collusion/marked cards).

So, as for the question at hand, I guess I'd like to know Star's (and other sites) official stance on the issue. I remember listening to a WCOOP broadcast way back when and Barry Greenstein talking about his "crazyplayer" account and how it's usually not him playing on it. I know of lots of other high profile accounts that are used my multiple players too. Because of this, I have to think the sites are ok with this going on, but I just don't know for sure.

[Zybomb]

It seems you agree with me for the posed question.... but Im a little confused here about this above -- so u r letting the individual poker sites determine whether or not something is ethical? If PT/PaHUD was to be deemed illegal by the poker sites tomorrow, it would suddenly go from being ethical to unethical? What if PokerStars allowed it but Full Tilt didn't?

I certaintly understand using the programs if they are legal and then not using them if they are illegal (you are following the rules) but I don't think that should have anything to do with whether or not it is ethical to use them... either you believe they are right or wrong

[Dodoubled]

You guys ever read the book "Bringing Down the House," by Ben Mezrich? It's about the MIT blackjack guys who learned to count cards and took Vegas for a couple mil. Over time, the casinos began to recognize those guys and kicked them out of the casinos. Their faces, names and aliases were eventually put in the Griffin book, which was, at the time, the guide all the casinos used to recognize cheats.

So what did these guys do? They went to smaller, off-the-beaten-path casinos and continued to play. And when they were caught there, they continued on down the track. And in essence, JD, I think this is what you're asking, in relation to online poker. In other words, when your online ID is discovered and you're revealed to be a good player, is it ethical to stop, change gears (and your screen name) to try and convince others that you're not really who you are?

Is it ethical? I don't know. I'm not sure I ever actually learned what the true meaning of "ethics" is. We had a lot of discussions in my journalism classes about what was ethical and what was not, and I never really understood the class because the answers seemed to blow in whatever direction the wind was heading (or whatever mood the prof was in that day). I also learned that what was "ethical" in my opinion wasn't always what the talking heads believed.

I think poker players of the old school consider a lot of things the young bucks do these days to be unethical (i.e. all the trash-talking, insulting, grandstanding and other B.S.), and a lot of that behavior is born online. But hell, the young guys are winning. Remember that Molina kid? I wonder if the fact that he won $330,000 at the WSOP gave him the right to embarrass his family's name on TV (which is pretty much what he did with his antics). His folks didn't seem to care, however.

I guess my definition of ethical is this: "Is it something I'd be willing to do, and more importantly, is it something I'd want to have done to me?"

If I were playing someone online and he took me for a couple grand, and later on I found out I had really played a pro, I'd be a little mad, sure. But then I'd realize that the whole idea in this game is to make money, and in the end, that's all he was -- some guy just trying to make a buck, using every legal advantage he can -- just like those MIT guys.

Isn't that what this game's all about, anyway?

[Zybomb]

Good post Double....

Is it also unethical to count cards because i takes away the house advantage and gives you won? Please

[Talking Poker]

Well, I generally consider myself to be a fairly moral person (I say "fairly," because I knowingly do my share of thing that are wrong by the letter of the law), so I guess I feel that using them - when they are allowed - is ethical, yes. If they were not allowed on a given site, I would stop using them on that site. Would I suddenly feel that they are unethical just because they are no longer allowed? Well, no, because I'd still use them on the other sites that allow them - but yes, I think using them on a site that forbids them is unethical, yes.

I'm not sure if that answers your question.

So back to the original question: Yeah, I guess I think it's unethical to play under someone else's account, and I have never done that myself (other than the time I sat in a tourney for JD for like 45 minutes). But would I fault anyone for doing it if it's not against the rules? Absolutely not.

And don't think I'm Mr. Super Straight Laced By the Book Guy either.... I mean, is downloading copyrighted episodes of High Stakes Poker from the internet because your stupid cable company doesn't get GSN unethical? I suppose so, yes. But do I do every week anyway?

[melioris]

This is an interesting discussion. What I have learned most is that you all suck at making analogies.

Seriously though, while live poker and internet poker are different beast entirely, there is a direct comparison that no one has mentioned yet. Back in the WSOP a couple of years ago there was a famous hand between Howard Lederer and somebody else. The hand had lots of action and the nameless one shoves (on the river I think) and then pulls his shirt over his head. Everyone laughs, but the guy stays that way until Lederer folds. As I remember fuckface’s hiding was not considered unethical, and I would think that hiding during a major hand in a live game a farther deviation from the spirit of the game than using a different account on the internet.

[Dodoubled]

Ha! Surely, you jest.

ETHICS:ONLINE POKER::

A.) WHITE:RICE
B.) STINK:SHIT
C.) POPE:CATHOLIC
D.) DODOUBLED:GETTING LAID TONIGHT

STOP!
PLEASE PUT YOUR NO. 2 PENCIL DOWN, CLOSE YOUR TEST BOOKS AND WAIT FOR FURTHER INSTRUCTION FROM YOUR PROCTOR.

[drewjax]

I remember this vividly. The funny thing is, that NAMELESS guy, (and I think he was basically a nameless guy at the time), has now turned into Cowboy Kenna James. A pretty decent player, and he has even been a commentator on several poker shows.
As for the subject at hand, its tough to say. Like with this Kenna James thing, (pulling jacket over head), or Phil Laak doing the same thing. There are no RULES against it, but many feel its just not right. I know that Negreanu hates this BS. He can often get on his soapbox, but he has a good point. Where do you draw the line? He asks the question that if all this is LEGAL, what would stop someone from literally bringing a box, and sitting in it while playing (maybe with little holes for his arms to push chips etc. lol danger Will Robinson)? Is that cool?
Also, I dont use them, but what about all these programs, like PT, HUDace, etc. TP and others have said they draw the line if the sites allow them (and I basically agree with that premise). But correct me if I'm wrong, but dont some sites TECHNICALLY not allow datamining? I am pretty sure this is the case. That is why some of these other programs/add-ons have popped up, to allow players to datamine when its not SUPPOSED to be happening. Another example is using information from sites like SharkScope. Again, I am pretty sure that Stars (and other sites) say that datamining in this fasion is not allowed. But the info is out there. So is it unethical for someone to buyin to a sng or mtt, and look up someones stats on sharkscope or the pokerdb? Well I think techinically it is not allowed by the site so it should be considered unethical. BUT, if everyone else is doing it, wtf right. You are putting yourself at a disadvantage by not using all the info.

I would love to play in an online world where we all had one ID. I think that is the most ethical way to do it. I think that to switch your ID is a BIT unethical. But again, if everyone else is doing it..............

With all of this babbling I think the answer is clear..There is no right answer either way.

[JDMcNugent7]

agreed. very few of these make good sense. does everyone understand the definition of ethical?

[Zybomb]

pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.

[Boobie Lover]

Here's a on this exact topic.

[Dodoubled]

That's exactly what makes this such an entertaining thread. Our friend Noah Webster has used a black-and-white definition to describe something that's anything but. Everyone's sense of morality (or in plainer terms, right and wrong), differs in some way.

Don't forget, there are plenty of extremists out there who think poker -- and gambling in general -- is unethical, thereby making this discussion moot (at least in their eyes).

[GTDawg]

Which ones don't make sense?

[melioris]

knows the answer

[Dodoubled]

I guessed the right one. Do I get a cookie?

[melioris]

you win DoD. I see now I should have gone with an Airplane! quote about calling me Shirley.

[GTDawg]

Roger, Roger

[Talking Poker]

At a glance (and only a glance), I think we are having a much better conversation here. 2+2 is great when you need info on something fast, but my God - I don't know how people can wade through all the crap for any of the more popular topics.

[Talking Poker]

Catchy tune. I'll be singing that all day fo sho...

[Zybomb]

Still deceit either way

[JDMcNugent7]

true, thats why i deleted my post, before i saw u quote it.
there's no right or wrong answers to this and i guess everyone's points are valid, some just make alot more sense to me than others.

I am with TP, I draw the line with the rules, and I guess the only reason I had a question about this, was because I really don't know the specifics of the rules in this case.

[Zybomb]

But that still doesnt make sense (to me at least). What one site believes shouldnt influence whether or not something is ETHICAL... just if it is LEGAL. For example if Pokerstars allowed the use of PT but Full Tilt did not, it would be illegal to use on Full Tilt and legal to use on Pokerstars... however you could not say that it is ETHICAL to use on Pokerstars, yet NOT ETHICAL on Full Tilt.... it's one or the other.... UNLESS what you are saying is that you believe "following the rules" to be ethical, so you will follow them, (if they dont allow it for example) despite the fact that you don't think that using PT would be unethical (kind of hard to follow im sure lol)

Ok we're about to open the restaurant, time for me to go upstairs