HU --- how aggressive on a 8 or 9 out draw

[Zybomb]

NLHE: Lets assume you limp in with a hand such as 9h8h. There is a limp before you, and both blinds complete as well.

You flop either a 4 flush or an up and down straight draw to a non paired board. The SB leads out with a bet of 1/2 the pot and both players in front of you fold.

How often are you raising here, and how often are you calling?

If you choose to call, and the turn brings a blank, the SB then fires out another bet of 1/2 the new pot, how often are you calling and how often are you raising (or if you fold, how often are you folding)

Again if you choose to call and the river is blank, do you simply fold to a SB bet, or are you trying for a steal here? OR if the SB checks, how often are you attempting the steal with a large bet here?

I think situations like these come up[ frequently in both tournament and cash game play... Im hopin to get some good discussion on this topic.

[Talking Poker]

Not only do you regularly post great replies to other people's threads, but you ask some seriously tough questions too (which, IMO, is why they get limited responses at times). Thanks Zybomb.......

I'm gonna hold off on giving my opinion for a bit, and let some of the resident NL guys take a crack at this first.

But I'll give you a quick preview of my answer: "It depends."

[sjay2k]

I don't like calling too often because you'll have to lay down the hand if you miss the turn. That leaves us with...

1. A small raise to get our opponent to check the turn and see a free river.
2. A big raise as a semi-bluff if our opponent is weak.
3. Push if it's the nut draw with overcards and the pot is large.
4. Fold depending on the weight of the following factors: if it's the low-straight draw, or the non-nut flush draw, two suited cards on a straight draw, our opponent doesn't have many chips behind them, our opponent is a TAG and unlikely to pay us off or our opponents are so bad that we can find much better spots.

[eejit101]

As a NL player....

1. if i flop a 4 flush or a UAD str8 draw i would raise minimum every time, as i would behappy winning the pot there and then.
2. If the turn is a blank and he bets again, the size of the pot and future plan would make me min raise again, to see how strong he is, and if i hit its great, if i miss then i know if hes strong or weak for the next play...
3. If i discover he is pretty strong, i would fold to his bet if i miss if he is worried by my raises, i let him think i was trapping and go all in or as near as possible, but this does depend on what i believe his hand to be, by how long it takes him to call my bets, and whether or not he reraised and so on.

[eddo31]

i havent played all that much no limit recently, but i will take a shot at this one.

the first part of this is qualified on what type of draw i have. if i have overs to the flop with my 8 or 9 outer, i will be much more aggressive than if i have the sucker end of the draw. for instance, if i have QJ and the flop is T9x i will be much more aggressive than if i had 87 on the same flop. going from 8 or 9 outs to potentially 14 or 15 make a big difference.

i would generally be aggresive on the flop in this situation, but not overly commit myself to the hand. a 1/3 to 1/2 pot bet seems about right here. if i get reraised then it gets a little bit trickier. if it is a small raise, i would be inclined to call, even though this may be intended as a trap with a legitimate hand (two pair, set). if you hit on the turn or pick up an additional draw then you can stick wit the hand and win a big pot, otherwise you drop it for a reasonable loss on the hand.

if the reraise on the flop is significant, given no reads, i would drop the hand there as it is still a relatively small pot and i would rather live another day.

if i hit on the turn then my actions would be dictated by what happened on the flop. if it went bet call, i would lead out. if it went bet, raise, call, then i would go for the check raise stop and go play.

if i miss on the turn, then i would be more inclined to put out a small feeler/blocker bet to try to either win the pot right there, or to get to the river cheaply. if reraised i am probably done with the hand, as the reraises on the flop and turn show enough strength for me to get out of the hand.


again, i havent played no limit in a while, so take these answers with that in mind.

very good questions. definitely made me think about difficult situations that arise pretty often.

[ChipFish]

I call with position.
Re-evaluate the turn.

[nflchad]

With a flush draw:
Raise and take a free card on the turn 25%
Call and reavaluate the turn 25%
Fold 50%

With a straight draw:
Raise and take a free card on the turn 50%
Call and reavaluate the turn 25%
Fold 25%

The implied odds on a straight are IMO much better than those on a flush, I think those make up for the lack of pot odds while with the flush you won't get paid off nearly as often by say TPTK.

[Zybomb]

IMO folding 50% of the time to a 1/2 pot sized bet with a 9 out draw (or more with overs) is too tight (at least for me). While a flush is obvious to spot, if you are in position, you can still call the bet on the turn, and if he checks the river make a small value bet which should be called as well and still profit on your made flush.

For example if the flop comes Kh6h4s and I lead out the flop with KQ and you call. Just because the turn comes 9h, doesnt mean Im going to check now and possibily give you a free card for a 4th heart which I have none of. Or even if I do, Im likely to call a small turn bet -- or even if you check back a river bet.... so i feel there still is more money to be made, just not a MONSTER pot, like there is a possibility for with a straight (especially against newer players)

I also think that raising on your draw and always taking the free card if you miss the turn is a mistake too for a few reasons. 1) it will give away your hand and people will catch up on this quickly. 2) it limits the action you will get when you raise the flop and then bet the turn (not necessarily a bad thing) 3) It doesnt give you another way to take the pot down if you miss your draw.

From the responses so far, it seems I play my drawing hands more aggressively than others (dunno if thats a good thing or a bad thing). LEts see what other responses come up...

[nflchad]

I still believe that flush draws tend to win small pots or lose large ones, while straight draws lose small pots and win larger ones. I also feel that the difference in the levels that you and I play likely come into both of our positions on the correct way to play the hand, for example at 25NL not many people will notice you taking free cards a lot.

[badblood44]

I too think that the straight draws are the most profitable, ESPECIALLY the double belly buster ones. For example, you're holding 68s and the flop is 47T. Flush draws are way too obvious in my book.

To compensate, I like the semi-bluff on the flop with a flush draw and a check on the turn if you actually made it - nut flushes only. You have to push hard with small card flushes as a 4th of the same suit on the river is often times bad news.

The other cards on the board matter too. If your opponent has TPTK for example, he'll be pushing draws off pots with proper betting - if he's good. If you choose to semi-bluff with a raise on either the flop or turn, be prepared to lay it down to a big re-raise.

It also depends on the player too. Are they a weak lead-out post flop? If so, hammer him with a raise.

[Zybomb]

interesting response (nflchad) and post (badblood) (TP im still waitin on you)

It seems overall though I may overvalue a flush draw (or at least value it more than you guys)

Im gunna start a seperate thread with a specific scenario dealing with potential opponent flushes, Im interested how people play these.