At what point are you just a gambler?

[Kurn]

Poker *is* gambling. The fact that there is a very large skill component doesn't change that fact. In fact, once you begin to traet poker like gambling, you accomplish 2 things: 1) you understand the theoretical basis for some counter-intuitive plays (like raising with ATs in the BB after 6 limpers) and 2) you avoid tilt, because you fundamentally understand that the reason skill is profitable is because unskilled players often can get lucky and win (and ultimately return to lose their winnings). It's people with good gambling sense that become long-term winners at poker. The "poker isn't gambling" dorks who think its a pure skill game like chess are the ones who either play too weak-tight to succeed or get frustrated too easily by being drawn out on by bad players to really put in the hours to learn the nuances of the game and become long-term winners.

And now that I've mentioned being drawn out on - if that really, really bugs you - stick to Hold'em. It's the game in poker where you'll get sucked out on the least. Stud and Omaha will absolutely drive you nuts. You see, while Hold'em is a very complex form of poker, it's the least complex in starting-card play. A trained monkey could approximate perfect preflop play. The complexity of the game on the flop and turn is much greater. Compare that to Stud, where 3rd street play may be the most complex.

Thus the poker newbie who has learned only hold'em is at a loss when he has to play a game where the hand values can change radically from one street to the next.

This long and rambling rant leads to this choice. If you want to really be a solid poker player, you must get some experience playing games other than hold'em. Trust me, playing stud or stud/8 will open up your brain to later street analysis and help your hold'em game. Playing high/low declare (home games only - it's not offered in casinos or online [yet]), really can hone your hand and people reading skills. On the other hand, if you have a great hourly rate multi-tabling and have no desire to branch out, stick to hold'em - you'd need to be Rain Man to multi-table stud successfully.

[Aequitas58]

I'm reading the posts in this thread and I'm back and forth. YES, poker *is* gambling - for the simple reason that you're betting money on a game of chance.

BUUUUT... there's more to it than to just consider it gambling. Right? Blackjack is gambling. Just like roulette, the slots, everything else in the casino, as well as proposition bets, and betting on the flip of a coin. (Which I have done.)

Something just tells me that while each hand is a gamble, over the long haul, there are situations you can identify, circumstances you can capitalize on, and other variables to make this less of a gamble and more of an investment.

-game selection
-good bankroll management - dealing w/ variance
-pre-flop selection
-check-calling the river instead of betting - when you should...
-shit: pokertracker

etc.

[Talking Poker]

This is a great thread. And props to Kurn for those fantastic posts. I see and agree with what you are saying. I think our difference lies withing the definition of "gambling." Specifically, I disagree with this statement that Aeq made:

Poker is NOT a game of chance. A game of chance is a game where you have no control over the outcome and are relying 100% on luck. I am not saying there is no luck in poker - there is PLENTY of it in the short term. And yes, examining a single poker hand, you can make an arguement that you are gambling. But if you play 1,000,000 hands of poker, I believe you have reached the long run and your skill has taken over. Looking at the 1 million hands you played, luck is gone from the equation (it washes out - everyone has effectively gotten the same cards once you rach the long run) and the amount of money you have won or lost is based entirely on your level of skill.

So I stand by this statement:
In the long run, poker is a game of skill and not a game of chance.

Therefore, using this definition for the word gambling: "To play a game of chance for stakes" ... Poker (again, in the long term) is not gambling.

[Aequitas58]

I was typing too quick. Don't forget I posted this in the same post:

Something just tells me that while each hand is a gamble, over the long haul, there are situations you can identify, circumstances you can capitalize on, and other variables to make this less of a gamble and more of an investment.

[Aequitas58]

I forgot about this other stuff in your post. See my comments above in bold.