I'll never make a good high $$ player because I couldn't do this...

[Penguinfan]

I play mostly at Full Tilt these days and sometimes while playing I will watch the higher dollar no limit games when some pro's I recognize are playing.

First of all it was kind of funny because during one of their "ProChat" session John Juanda was asked if a good player could go broke and he responded yes, it's all about table selection because even if you are the 9th best player in the world and you are at a table with the top 8 players in the world you will eventually go broke.

So it was odd to see him at a 50/100 NL 6-max table with John D'agastino (SP?), and two of FT's better known NL players KrisQueen and BoostedJ. Anyway an unknown player (don't recall the name) bumped it to $500 pre-flop (keep in mind this is not a tourney, it's cash money), KrisQueen re-raises to $1500, unknown player pushes all-in for nearly $3000 more, KrisQueen immediatly calls.

Unknown player shows AQo and KrisQueen shows AKs. I can't imagine no matter how big my roll is that in a cash game I get that much money in pre-flop with those hands.

I know it was 6-max, but don't you wait for a better spot? JD??

If it matters the unknown player caught four clubs on the board to make a Q high flush and drags a huge pot, just sick.

[JDMcNugent7]

i dont see how u can wait for a better spot in that situation really. i mean after he raises 5bb u re-raise with AK, and against a short stack (4k is short for 50/100) u gotta call the push with that much $ in there.

also, boostedJ is not anything great, hes on party 1k all the time.

[Reel Deal]

I had something similar happen at Titan last night, albeit on a lower table ($100 NL)... I got dealt AK UTG and raised to $4, got one caller then the BB reraised to $17 (the guy had been fairly loose but I did think he probably had something like AK, QQ, JJ, TT...). The reraiser only had about $25-30 left in his stack so I decided to gamboool and pushed all-in, caller folds and when it gets back to the BB he types, "unless you have AA or KK you're beat" and then calls. K falls on the flop and I'm sure I've got him now with his QQ... but of course a Q falls on the river and I lose the pot. He proceeds to let me know what a donkey I am for playing AK like that... lol. I said that's fine and I'm sure I'd get it back from him. Of course, one hand later he says, "gotta run."

Penguin, my thoughts on a play like this are (a) I'm not folding AK to that reraise b/c there's now quite a bit of $ in the pot and that reraise looked like he wanted to end it right there (ie, he wasn't holding AA or KK), (b) with his stack size and the size of that reraise, all his $ is probably going in anyway (unless it was a complete bluff, then he's folding and I win a nice pot), (c) with AK I really want to see all 5 cards hit the board, (d) it's a cash game if I miss I can simply reload, (e) I'm playing w/in my bankroll so a hit like this (if I have to take it) won't bother me... so with all that in mind I pushed, caught what I wanted on the flop and then got unlucky on the river. My philosophy in cash games has changed a bit (I too wouldn't have made a play like this in the past) in that I'm willing to take a 50-50 shot at a big pot.

[Penguinfan]

I guess if you bump it down to the levels I play, $25 NL and SOME $50 NL the play makes sense.

Just hard for somone who plays like I do to ever think about pushing a total of $5,000+ into a pot with a drawing hand and consider the loss OK because it's within my bankroll.

Either way it was a sick beat for KrisQueen, maybe have to get Matusow to pay back that 50 large he lent him a couple weeks ago, then again, maybe not.

[Reel Deal]

It's all relative.

[studiopet]

Good point RD..

In fact - after this weekend - my BR relatively sucks. Har har.

[Kurn]

I can't imagine no matter how big my roll is that in a cash game I get that much money in pre-flop with those hands.

That's because you think of it as *money* (something that can buy something). If you're properly bankrolled, its just chips once you're at the table.

[Penguinfan]

My point being, in a tournament where you HAVE to accumulate chips I can see taking a coin flip in the right scenario (not always though).

In a cash game where you have unlimited hands to play and no increasing blinds I just don't see getting my money in as, AT BEST on the short end of a coin-flip when I can wait and get much better odds for sure down the road.

I guess I have a lot to learn.

[Reel Deal]

Let me ask you this Penguin... would you make the play at a .01/.02 NL table?

[melioris]

I think the point that Penguinfan is trying to make is that this doesn’t seem like a particularly skillful move and one would expect more from high stakes players.

I think what Penguinfan is overlooking is the metagame aspect of short-handed high buyin NL, particularly when it comes to aggression.


Metagame is my poker vocabulary word of the month.

[Kurn]

In a vacuum, the plays may seem strange, but there may be factors that led to the scenario that we may not be aware of.

IMO, the AQo play is the weaker of the two, unless he has some history that suggests the reraise may be with a weaker hand. Once the all-in bet is made, the AKs hand is getting better than 2:1 to call. He'd need some pretty solid evidence that the push could only mean AA or KK to fold AKs in that situation. Because even if it means as tight a range as (and I doubt its that tight a range) AA-QQ, AK, AQ, his AKs wins half the time getting 2:1.

[Penguinfan]

If my bankroll could only support playing at .01/.02 I honestly have to say no, I look for this fool to pay me off with an over-pair when I flop a set.

If I am wrong then so be it, I'll accept that, but I would think if you are playing within your bankroll limits that you could find a better spot than 50/50 for your money.

Let them gamble or make the mistakes.


I wish I had not posted the outcome of the hand now. Obviously I think the AQ play was flat out horrendous, but I'm not all that fond of calling off my chips with AK either.


Kurn says he was getting 2:1 on his money to call the all-in and will win 50% of the time, I agree with that, but aren't the facts that he still had put in half of the pot, so in reality if he wins half the time he really breaking even.

Now before anyone jumps to the keyboard and tells me that once the chips are in the pot they are no longer yours please understand the I am aware of that, I am also aware that the reality of why we play is to make money and the reality is that there was roughly $9000 in the pot and each player put in $4500 so if you win 50% of the time you break even minus the rake.


If the unknown player pushed right from the go for $4500 are you telling me KrisQueen still should make the auto-call? Now he's getting 1:1 on his money on a 50/50 situation simply because the money went in at different intervals.

[studiopet]

I flat out agree with you here. Recently I've found that AK looks good but cost me more chips than its worth. I think it was referenced as the Anna Kournikova in the WSOP.....looks pretty but seldom wins.

Keep in mind - this is coming from a player who has donked damn near 1/2 his BR in SNG's this past weekend. Take it for what its worth. I'm sure someone will post some PT stats on AK and show that in the long run it is a winning hand though. =)

[Boobie Lover]

Microlimit player's thinking: I have AK. I'm not going broke with AK, it's only a coinflip.

High Stakes Player's thinking: I have been reraising a bunch. This guy is going to 3bet with a heck of a lot worse than AK against me since he is not a complete nit. Extremely easy call for a 30 BBs stack.

[Kurn]

Kurn says he was getting 2:1 on his money to call the all-in and will win 50% of the time, I agree with that, but aren't the facts that he still had put in half of the pot, so in reality if he wins half the time he really breaking even.

Yes and no. Here's where consideration of the metagame comes in.

Short-handed high buy-in NL. Below is what each bet means.

1st raise to 5 BB: "I raise because I want to"

reraise to 15 BB: "I know that your raise means any pair, AK-A8, KQ-KJ, QJ, QT, maybe a couple of medium suited connectors and 10% random trash. I reraise because you'll fold 3/4 of thoise hands."

All-in 3rd raise: "Ha! This time I have a hand that's in the top 15%"

Call: "Well, I guess you have a hand in the top 15%, but folding AKs getting 2:1 is wrong so lets gamble."