Form and Stats

[jimmym]

Its common knowledge now that every online poker player and others can check a players form and stats including $ won and lost. But how many players actually know the true reflection of there poker costs.

Like many I have offten paid Sharkscope, Bluff and other various sites a visit and checked the info held on the databases, like many on here I have been playing for many years and like many on here have never won a major tournament online or tournament thats paid really big $.

The true reflection of this was shown to me when I joined a couple of the major database sites and paid the subscription, this gave me access to the full cost of my poker play.

Since my start in 2002 Ive mainly played tournaments infact on pokerstars ive played 1288 at a cost of $22,606.32 from this outlay ive reached 198 payouts and had 68 final tables with only 1 tournament win for $1,057.15 from $15,089.42 winnings.

The cost of this to me is a loss of over $7000. Very dissheartining for me to see this in print never really knowing the true cost.As many of you know when you go to these site without being a full member you only see what youve won so ths can really impair what others and yourself think.

So is this all it reads? well yes no matter how I put it I am a losing player, but now for my learning curve, why do I lose so much? well looking at the data I understand that when I play poker I dont just enter one or two tournaments infact at times I am playing upto 6 tournaments at a time and all low level (under $25) so when I do manage to place I am only winning small amounts which do not cover my entry fees for all the games played.

Using the data I hope to turn this around in the coming year, I have started by playing 1 tournament at a time and by doing this I can play at a entrance fee a little higher than all those small ones put together, I can use the positives from the data held on me (there are a few) and understand I have a good record in certain tournament games and play in these games abit more often (PLO PLDRAW and 7STUD shows me a positive roi, with 7stud actually showing a positive of over 80%).

So even after 5years of online poker and listening/reading ect, am glad to say am still learning, now I know many of you guys can clearly show +$ and some even massive returns playing cash tables, infact since my start on cash tables playing at low level I can offset my tournament losses, but thats not what this post is about, its showing that some of us and indeed others can be easily dissalusioned or fooled by data and info held on 3rd party sites, indeed this all came about by some player sitting at a table telling everyone how much theve won lost ect and then telling everyone I had over $15k in winnings (if only they knew the truth).

So to wrap this up, I understand I can learn all the time and infact have just started to use my learnings by playing 1 tournament at a time ($27.50 entered twice cashed twice) and am sure if I stick to this I will soon win a reasonable prize which will turn around my stats.

My positive game results are games I never really considered or thought of much but lately after understanding am quite good at these Omaha-Stud I will play more of and true to form I cashed in my latest stud.

So ive posted this as a topic I dont know if you guys have any thoughts on it or feelings, infact I think ive rambled on abit, but I hope some of you can comment.

[Invigilator]

When we talk about bankroll management, it is often in terms of having enough reserves to absorb the variance while playing at an appropriate buy-in. However, you are bringing up a very vaild point. If a person is serious about winning, I would say you absolutely HAVE to know how much you are winning or losing (unless you have soo much money that you'll never run out ).

My cousin is a good player, but he plays higher than he can sustain. He takes shots, busts out and makes new deposits fairly regularly. I am sure he has no clue how much money he has lost. Going along with that, he has a hard time identifying the holes in his game. When he is winning, he feels like the best player in the world, but like Mike "the mouth" he bust out more than he should. (disclaimer, when he is winning, he is better than I am)

Money is the measure of winning and losing in the long run. In any game, if we don't know if we are winning or losing (again, in the long run), it would be pretty hard to know if we were playing well.

[Wes]

How can you not know if you are winning or losing? Wouldn't it be obvious when you redeposit for the 15th time?

[Invigilator]

For most people. People who take money out of their online account for non-poker stuff could be unclear why they are down if they don't keep records.

[Talking Poker]

Winning players (usually) keep records.

Losing players don't.... If they did, they wouldn't be able to lie to themselves and convince themselves that they are winners.

[Kurn]

I agree 100%. I don't need to pay a site to know how much I've won or lost. I log my results at the end of each session (or tourney, or SNG) and keep a +- running total. There's no denial possible when you look at the numbers every day.

[jimmym]

I have to fully agree in what you write, but am afraid the plain truth is most or should I say a big majority of online players dont actually know there losses since the start. And this can be a eye-opener.

There is no doubting every player will know whether they are up or down each month, running PT takes care of this for me in the main. But it is very easy for a player to write off a month or two and then another and so on. The point of the thread is to point people to a tool which will keep those records since the start of your poker journy, its a great tool for looking how your improving or not over each month/year and at what levels/games you are winning/losing.

Mainly tournament based so I suppose a true reflection can sometimes be jarred as nowdays if you hit in even a modest tournament you can jump to huge +profit, but still in my opinion a great tool to have full access to.

We all have to remember that with poker forums the members will range right through the poker spectrum so allthough its sometime easier to laugh or scoff at how players manage there bankroll its allways important to offer all means and ways on how players can do this.

OK I will try to explain how Ive read into the data held on Bluff for myself. After reading everything held I have found that at certain games playing at certain levels I have done well on a month on month basis. I was showing a reasonable roi playing $8+ plo omaha, now I checked to see that this was not just a high place that had thrown my roi up but was constant finishes in the most. Looking through there data it was clear for me to see that I was quite good at this game placing in the biggest majority of these mmts over the past year and improving month on month.

Now I know some will say I should of known this anyway but as I explained I sometimes play 6 tournaments at a time and sometimes 20 a day.

So I have set rules for myself, which through self disipline I will follow,Lastnight I fired up the pcand decided to stick to my plan 1 entry into a $10 NL tourny and 1 entry into a $8 pl omaha tourny, now I went out in the NL fairly early but was happy with the way I played moving allin with a set and my opp hitting a flush on the river. But in the Omaha I found just playing the 1 tournament I was quite good, I found I was totally at ease and felt in control, my stats were showing 19/19 hands won at showdown before again I went out again happy with my play holding a full house to my opps 4 kind.I took 6th so managed yet another final tbl.

So thats how am using this data to learn with, which may sound strange to some, but to me its all about learning still.

[Reel Deal]

Sorry to do this but...





* jumps down off grammar soap box *

[2Tone]

By keeping your own records, you'll have a better view of your own game and results, plus not have to pay a service. That's a win-win, even for a losing player.