Rules Question

badblood44 · #1 10-14-05, 12:07 PM

I'd like opinions on the following scenario:

It's a NLHE ring game and the question regards the last betting round.

Player A, with roughly a $30 stack, bets $10.
Player B says to Player A, "I'll put you all in" then pushes in a stack of $5 chips worth about $95.
Player C, says "Call" and pushes in his entire stack, which is more than the $95 pushed out by Player B.

Player A folds.

Player B says his bet is only the $30 required to cover Player A's stack, because he said "I'll put you all in" BEFORE pushing chips into the pot. Player B also says Player C cannot raise, because Player C has already said "Call."

What is player B's legal bet, $30 or $95?

BlibbityBlabbity · #2 10-14-05, 12:21 PM

Player C can't raise after saying call...BUT I would say it depends if player B was clear in saying he was putting PLAYER A all in. If player C was calling player B putting HIM all in then he should be getting all the chips in.

Ultimately Player C should have just said I'm all in instead of call, right?

hard to say who meant what here.

badblood44 · #3 10-14-05, 12:25 PM

It was very clear that Player B intended to put Player A all in. Sorry for not making that clear in the original, I'll edit it.

The question centers around how he did it, by overbetting the amount required to do so by putting in $95 instead of $30.

After more people reply, I'll tell you how the issue was resolved.

BlibbityBlabbity · #4 10-14-05, 12:32 PM

I see, $30 total for player B would be my guess then, since he couldn't "put player A all in" for more than that.

Windbreaker · #5 10-14-05, 01:18 PM

My feeling is if player B says to player A, I'll put you all in...then proceeds to push all his chips into the middle, someone should point out the mistake at that point right away. Eg. The action should be stopped before anyone makes another decision, and anything above $30 should be pulled back. However, if no one mentions anything and then Player C says call then pushes all his chips in....it's too late now. Both players should have all their chips in and no one should be able to pull money out of the pot.

To me, it's almost like instant replay in the NFL. If the refs make a bad call, the coach can throw the red flag, but if the next play has already started, it's too late. You can't stop the action and go backwards.

jillaj · #6 10-14-05, 01:25 PM

If he pushes his chips into the pot, the amount he pushes in should be what he bet, not what he said. He said he puts A allin which his 95 dollar bet does. Player C called players B's bet which was 95 dollars. If player B only wanted to put as much as player A had he should have asked him how many chips he had and put exactly that amount in instead of overbetting.

badblood44 · #7 10-14-05, 01:26 PM

I am in absolute agreement with this statement. Sadly, this didn't happen.

Quint · #8 10-14-05, 01:48 PM

Wow, that's a crappy situation. Hopefully in a casino the dealer would have clarified player B's action before player C acted. As it stands, either player B or C could be angle shooting if they are so inclined. If the consensus was that neither player was trying to angle shoot then I would allow player B's intended declaration (basically, raise to $30) to stand and then allow player C to act (not be bound by his declaration to call what he thought was player B's all in). Player C could then fold, call, or raise. If either player B or C have a history of angle shooting I would be inclined to declare the hand null and void and return all chips in the pot to their pre-hand owners.

Edited to add: Upon further review, declaring the hand null and void would not be fair to player A, who has done nothing wrong in this hand. I now think that if I suspected either player B or C of angle shooting I would declare the action dead after player A's bet (when thigs got ugly) and only allow players B and C to call that bet. I know this wouldn't float in a casino, but this is a friendly home game, right?

Zybomb · #9 10-14-05, 02:02 PM

Player B's bet is 30 dollars, not 95. When he said "I'll put you all in" this implies he is betting the rest of player As stack, 30 dollars total. Lets put this in simpler terms. Im UTG and look down to see Pocket Aces, playing a 1/2 NL Table. I announce a raise to 8 and then throw in 20 chips... the 12 extra chips then have to be returned to me, as I already announced me raise of 8 and can not change it.

This issue is, since nothing was said about player B putting more chips in the middle than his bet, can he really then take chips out of the pot after another player has acted? Player C clearly said call, so he absolutely can not raise in this spot.... the question is what is he calling? Legally he is calling 30 dollars, but there is more money than that in the pot, and this was not corrected...so it becomes confusing.

What happened?

Edit: This is precisely the reason that "I'll put you all in" is NOT a move in poker. Either your all in, or you raise a certain amount (enough to put them all in), You can ask how much he has left, and then bet that amount... but with other players in the hand, there is no move that you "put someone all in" its confusing.... this is used for home games, and when in a casino, can lead to complicated situations, like the one above.

Haggs · #10 10-29-05, 01:00 AM

Why the hell wouldnt he just put in what player A had if he knew PLayer C still had to act behind him before player A, but anyway, even though he verbalized that he was intending to put player A all in, i think since he put $95
in the pot, thats his bet. Its his stupidity, and player C is also retarded for saying call and putting in more chips then are needed to call, but i guess he thought he was being put all in. Anyway, if I was sittin' at this table I would say, Player B's bet is 95 and Player C is to call the 95