AA or KK very early in a multi
 

Do you go all-in pre-flop or slow play them. I almost always push all-in especially if it was raised before me simply because there are a ton of bad players in these games and someone is gonna call you, now I know AA is not invinceable, but I'll take my chances. I was called by 4 people on the second hand of a tourney once with AA and it held up, believe it or not after checking the lobby board I was still not the leader :eek:

Thoughts?

Penguinfan

The question is not whether you go ALL IN with AA or KK pre-flop in a tourney. If you are doing this, then you are not making as much money as you can. The power of AA and KK is such that you are already a big favorite to win the hand. Granted, these power hands (specifically, AA and KK) CAN be beaten, so you shouldn't play a family pot w/ AA! The main goal is isolating 1-3 players where you have a clear advantage. [Not counting what the flop brings.] This shifts the implied odds of already winning the hand in your favor. Going all in is silly, IMO, because in most situations, you'll only pick up the blinds.

So how to play AA and KK? Depends on position and chip count, in my opinion. Maybe a raise 4-6x BB? Maybe an all-in raise if you have a low amount of chips.

I pose another question: Say you have KK on the button, first hand of the tournament. UTG raises all-in, and there is one caller before you. What do you do? [I know what I do, because I know how I play, but I'm just wondering...]

Hope this helps somewhat.

I would on Party!
 

The early rounds of a typical $5+1 Party SNG are just so crazy that you are likely to get a couple of callers and can triple up. Naturally, the higher the buy-in, the less wild play, so I'd play them differently at a $30+3.

All in or just call? Neither.

I almost always play AA and KK for a standard raise. If I get reraised, then I have a decision to make - and more often than not, that's when I push in.

Yes. The 5+1 games almost resemble the Free 10+1 tournaments! For my money, I'd rather play the 10 or 20s; the action is still good, and you can make more money.

Exactly. Pushing all in would realistically scare off money you could win.

Good answers, my point was just that it seems you can get callers by people holding as little as Axs and bouble/triple up quickly. Later in the game I always play them for a standard raise and then if re-raised I push em all-in. The reason I asked was because the other day I got AA first hand and got called by A9s and KQo and tripled plus some on the first hand and was curious if anyone else sees this happen.

Well it's always great to double or triple up in the beginning, but I feel like the odds of that happening in the long run are small. I'd rather try to milk the other callers for all their worth.

All in bet might scare away my action.

I don't think an all-in is smart at all, unless theres someone on the table you know will call. even then its risky despite having the best odds.

going all in with AA in early position is never a good play. You dont want too many callers, but you do want SOME action. If you are at a table that you know will be very reckless, just call the big blind in early position so that someone will raise, and you can reraise them. If you are in middle position, raise to about 5x the big blind (if someone already raised, reraise them 2x their bet). If you are in late position, raise 5x the big blind (if someone has already raised and gotten more than 3 callers when you are in late position, reraise for at least 3x the current bet).

Even in a family all in pot, you should go all in with pocket aces because your 33% chances of winning the pot is way more than anyone else's. Once you factor in the pot odds, you are getting 9 to 1 on your money when you have a 33% chance of winning.... winning a pot like this is worth going in with only 33% chance of winning, especially in tournaments, because you will be put in a position to win the rest of the tourney if you win this hand. If you fold because 33% is not a high enough percent for you to get 9 to 1 on your money, you have no business playing poker.

-JB

i find that with pocket aces, what you want is raises in as many positions before you as possible, then push in all the chips. I feel that with pocket aces, you DO NOT want to be called. You don't want some shmuck to get lucky on you, so all in is the way to go.

If I have AA and I made a big raise preflop I definately want a caller preferably with Ax because then I'm a huge favorite to win, hell every other pocket pair is a 4 to 1 underdog. The this you don't want to do is let people in cheap to beat you with J9o or whatever . The only time you might want to just call is if there is only a single raiser and everyone has folded to you and you are confident that you'll be heads up, then I would probably smooth call and try to trap someone with AJ and a board of J93. Another play people seem to love to do is to check the flop if they hit a set this is a good move if there isn;t two suited on the board(if there is I'd be wary of letting someone draw a flush for cheap the same goes for higher connectors). If you're worried that you;ll be outdrawn with AA definitely push it all in. No one will every critisize your play for doing it!

I generally like to see a flop before I commit all of my chips, although some situations warrant you to put all your chips in. Is that situation early in a multi where blinds are 15/30, someone has raised to 300, and there is two callers before it gets to you??? Tough decision, is the hand worth all of your chips before the flop? Yes, but is it still worth all of your chips before the flop when 5 players see the flop? Hmmmm....wheres Yoon when you need 'her'?

If I am sitting on AA and someone in front of me puts in a decent size raise, my chips are going in the pot. You have the best hand and what better of a situation could you ask for. I would do this in any position, because you have to figure the worst you could be up against is a pair, or maybe get 2 callers and be up against 2 pairs. If this happens, you have to figure there is only 4 outs that you lose to, so it is like those 2 pairs against you are drawing to an inside straight. I have won countless tournaments online being called by KK and QQ on the same hand and the board not helping noone.

Sure, it is easy when no one has entered the pot and the player to your right opens big, but what do you do when blinds are 15/30, A opens for 300, and B and C call before it gets to you and you have T800 and two of the players have you covered? Do you want to risk all of your chips this early knowing that if you pop all in you may get at least 2 callers? I think I like to see the flop in that spot and pop it if I get the chance. Getting all my chips in with 4-5 players seeing the flop leaves me helpless, I don't like this situation at all. I need all my chip in with AA in a HU pot. Multi Pots=AA death.

Absolutely, if I'm low on chips, the more, the merrier. How often do you get a chance to triple or quadruple up with AA in your hand. Hit that third A and your good, or if the board is pure rags, again you are usually ok, especially with a lot of callers when you go all-in. If you can't play your AA with X number of callers, what can you play? You will have to assume that many of the big cards the other players are holding are in each others hands, so their number of outs is reduced.

I think its best to get your chips in heads up or with only 2 other callers if you have AA. Obviously, the odds of AA holding up go down as more people are in the pot so I think it is not a good idea to let too many people see the flop.

Hypothetical situation for you all:

World Series of Poker 2005.
First Hand:
Player ahead of you goes all-in
You look down to see you have A-A.
Do you call?

I say no.
I'll tell you why after I get 3 responses.

Only if it was Phil Helmuth who went all in. What fun it would be to see him cry, first out of the tourney :D

LMAO!

OK Part marks for that one. But still wrong in my opinion.

yes, you push it in on the firsthand of the tourney with AA if someone already went all in in front of you.

if this isnt your automatic response, i dont think that you belong in the tourney. the worst situation for you could be that the person in front of you has a hand like T9s. in that case you are still better than 3-1 to win the hand (according to twodimes.net). but more likely, you are up against KK, QQ. in this case you are 4-1 to win. in my opinion, you have to take risks like that in a tourney in order to move on.

also, by going all in here, you are probably shutting down the action, and it will be heads up. very unlikely that anyone else enters the pot behind you, and that is also in your favor. playingthe pot heads up is much better than playing a family pot.

also a good answer but in my opinion wrong also.
One more, and I'll give you my reasoning.

uhm.. part of me wants to call there and have the chance of doubling up but then again, that's $10,000 down if he gets the miracle cards.

I'd say yes though.

There's your three.

My real response is that I would probably do what almost everyone will tell you here and push in my chips with the best hand.

But I see the other side where playing survival poker (tournament) for a $10 million payday, do you want to risk even a 4 to 1 on the first hand. If you are a solid player with a shot to go all the way to final table, you know you will be able to take advantage of weaker players in situations where you have seen a flop and have a better idea if you hand will hold up if it goes to the river. Depends on your personality which way you go here.

I agree with this one....
We can all agree that you can get sucked out on right?
Well If I told you that I was going to give you A-A and I would take 2-7o/s or any other hand that you would like me to have, and if I win you give me
$10,000. If you win, you have to beat 2500 other guys to the final table.
You really don't get much if you win here do you?
IF you lose, you're out $10K.
If you win, you're really not up that much in the grand scheme of things.
Let's say you win. Fine, now you have $20,075 or whatever the blinds are to start. Give the rest of the field 4-5 hands and there are guys ahead of you.
Why risk it?
Yes I beleive I am good enough to build a stack without an all-in gamble like that.
And yes I understand that you have to make lots of all-in gambles to place in this tournament.... However, that being said.... do it when there are more chips on the line.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong... In fact statistically speaking I should push-in.... I just feel it's not worth it.

If this was a S&G... Then I wouldn't hesitate. Same for a ring-game. and same for a small-buy-in multi table.
Just not for a large buy-in multi-table. I want to play in the WSOP, I don't want to watch it.

My two cents.
James

Chip,

You have to play to win the tournament. Not, play just to play. Although there are circumstances where you should fold aces, your odds of surviving the tournament are so small... and it doesn't even matter if you are a solid player. I see no hesitation here. Get your money in when you have the best of it.

"Call."

Not going to change my mind here....
I understand the stats.... I understand what the "correct" move is....

I still fold.

i understand the idea of playing for survival at times, and not playing for coinflips, but that is not this situation. this is the absolute best situation you can be in to gain chips. there is a point in time where you will have to accumulate chips, or you will be gone. doing so with a 4-1 edge is as good as you can get preflop. i know you dont want to bust early, and the fact that you have to move in is something that you want to avoid, but given these odds i think you have to do it.

hellmuth talked about a hand in this yaers tourney where he laid down QQ when he said he put his opponent on 77, and he justified the laydown by saying that the guy could have sucked out on him. i dont think that is a legitimate excuse at all, and there is a difference between playing scared and playing for survival. AK v JJ is a coinflip, overpair v underpair is not.

the fact that you said that you would do this in a small buy in MTT tells you exactly what you should do in thi ssituation. if you are playing and the amount of money you are playing for makes you adjust your strategy, then you shouldnt be playing at that limit/buy-in.

just wondering, if you won the seat in a $40 online satellite, a la moneymaker, would that change your decision?

And... If you go into the WSOP with that attitude, you won't come close to making the money.

Keep on foldin.

I think doubling up on the first hand of the tourney is a huge advantage IMO. Think of the power you would wield at the table you are playing. You can steal a heck of a lot more pots, and can generally overbet many of your hands to bully people out. I would push all-in with AA in a heartbeat.

Please see my other thread....
Keep offering advice :rolleyes:

Perhaps you will one day learn that multi-table tournaments are about survival.
Just so you know, the WSOP is not a Rebuy! (Czarcasm ;) :D

In a field of 2500 with 10,000 starting chips you will need approx 1 million chips or so to make around the final table.... Tell me again how important those 10,000 chips from the first hand are? Would they be nice to have?
Yes.... Are they necessary? Not in the least.

If I do go to the WSOP
Wouldn't it be funny if I sat at the TV table and they show my first hand and it's A-A.... I'd probably push all-in even though I am writing the opposite.
LMAO

I was just thinking the same thing. Especially on TV, I think you would look pretty dumb to not go all-in.

And James, I believe you meant Czarcasm. ;)

Although could you imagine being the guy who FOLDS Aces and then goes on to place in the money? They might talk about that for a while.



Yes you are correct.... How sillly of me.... Spelling error corrected. ;)

Yeah, they'd talk about it a while, that's the guy that liad down AA on the first hand of the tourney.

Although for some reason I'm not so sure I'd want to be remembered in that light.

Yes, multitable tournies are about survival...if you want to sneak into the money.

If you want to win the damn thing, there is no way you fold AA to an allin bet against 1 player with any size stack....at any point of the tournament....even on the bubble.

I ask, what would be a better spot to get your chips in? If i was playing against a player who wouldnt call all his chips with AA preflop....well guess what, every time you put a bet in preflop, and i'm in a position to isolate...im gonna put you in.

The Best players are aggresive players, who build a stack, and use it to pummle the rest. You can not build a stack without taking some risks. And if you are not willing to put all your chips in the middle with the bullets, against only 1 player, ill say what others have said....you will never win a major tournament. You might be able to struggle along and limp into the money....but final tables make people rich.