Forum Tilt thread in the making.
 

will be playing a ton tonight if anyone wants to get in call for us, im estimating about 5-6 people at least in call. Its usually a good time and the ghosting is nice if someone goes deep. Post skype name if you want a call.

Collusion.

big difference between running someones hand and giving advice.

So, let me ask you this, at a live event, say the WSOP, do they let you go talk to 5-6 of your friends during a hand to get their advice? I guess you all think the one player per hand rule is just an optional thing? If I knew someone at my table had 5-6 people in their ear giving them advice, I would not be happy, at all, and would inform the site.

actually its between the hands we talk about it and yes in the wsop you can get up between hands and talk about whatever you wish. If you dont believe me your welcome to join us one night. There is too much going on to get a response during a hand anyway even if we wanted to, but like I said Im not hiding anything so join us any night.

I know the site rules, do you think If I was doing something that would jeopardize my account I would openly invite everyone. I know you all dont think much of my intelligence but do you really think im that stupid?


if we were giving advice during the hand that is what I consider running a hand for someone. If someone say hey did you see that hand I shoved with 89 there wat that good, and we explain why or why not it was good that would be ghosting. That is what my coach does for me.

And you can prove that you're not talking to each other about a specific hand, during that hand, how?

well if your on the call you can listen, will be pretty obvious if we are talking about a hand if you have the table up wont it? TBH I don't need to prove anything, no one has accused me of anything, and you can prove im talking about a specific hand, during a hand, how? All I said was we ghost each other which all online coach's do online, yes maybe some cheat and tell their students what to do but im not one of them. I would never cheat its not in my nature so if you want to email stars because you think im cheating then be my guest because I know I have done nothing wrong.


Did I at any point in this thread say we discussed hands while they were going on? If I did please show me? all I said is we ghost each other which means we pull eachothers table up and watch. If a player has a question about a hand he played he asks AFTER THE HAND IS OVER! if someone tries to talk about a hand while its going on he gets dropped.

example: guy shoves XXX (after hand is over asks)
guy: hey I shoved XXX there was that a good shove? do you think I still had fold equity?
Everyone else discusses it and come to conclusion on hand.

why do you consider that cheating? Do you not discuss hands in HA here? only difference is we are discussing it on the phone and not typing it out. Seriously your making a huge deal about nothing.

I'm sorry I invited you all into a serious live discussion of poker strategy, my mistake wont happen again. I will relieve myself from this thread because im pretty insulted that after like 4 years on this forum you would think I would cheat at poker like this. Again if you want to sit in your more then welcome anytime because I know the players I talk with don't cheat. Go ahead and make your pathetic accusations all you want and assume what you want, all you had to do is ask me if we talk about hands while there going on and I would of said of course not but you didn't. All I said is there is a difference between ghosting and running someone hand because there is, you assume because a couple players online ghost someone else and tell them how to play we all do that which we dont.

I wish i got 3 cards to shove with.

must be because I'm cheating again obv, whops I typed in thread guess im not done with. About to have to change my signature also because this is soooo about to forum tilt me.

Id like a skype call just for the comedy factor.

k what is skype name?

its pretty fun because everyone talks about stupid stuff, but there are some great players in that convo. One of them took down the 16k last week, Im all about learning so if he decides to talk strategy im all ears.

I know what you said was a level though.

just so you know most ghosting online is legit and its one person going deep telling us what he is doing. Not asking for advice but showing us how to play a certain hand in a certain spot. After all he had to have some skills to get that deep and you can learn from him. We are all here to learn but if you are just there to make jokes and not learn then obv you will not be welcome. So don't be a douche.

As a lawyer, you should know that (unless accused) the burden of proof isn't on every player to prove they aren't cheating. That's just silly.

I'm not sure of the exact rules the sites have with regards to ghosting, honestly, but I think it's ok.

ok we are talking if you all want in.

As a lawyer, I do know that they could freeze anyone's account for pretty much any reason and there'd be very little we could do about it. So, I don't understand your point as our (U.S.) legal standards for burdens of proof have little to do with an off-shore poker site that can set its own rules including burdens of proof. My point is that it would be hard for the sites to know whether or not these people are discussing a hand while it's happening so I don't know how they would police this other than an outright ban.

Don't lecture the professor on legal theories. That's just silly.

And therein lies the problem.

Brian, I'm not going to contact any sites about this so don't get your panties in a twist. And, I'm not accusing you personally. It just seems like it could be abused (which you have admitted). That's all I'm pointing out here.

Skype newbie question, there is no IM option on Skype, just talking, right?

It's been a while since I've had it loaded up, but I seem to recall there being IM, as well as voice and video calling.

yea you can IM.

Crosby87FTW is trying to contact you.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people

Skype doesn't cheat at poker, people cheat at poker.

It's all in how you use it I guess.

I think you are missing my point.

Given what you just said, why aren't you worried about the freezing your account until you prove that no one is sitting next to you when you play, or that your wife never plays on your account, or that you're not on Skype talking to someone while you play?

All I was saying is there would be no reason for Brian to prove his innocence if no one suspects he's doing anything wrong - and if he ISN'T doing anything wrong (not colluding, for example), I don't know why anyone (read: Stars) would ever suspect anything.

This is why:

I just don't see why having 6-7 people in your ear giving you advice during a tournament should be allowed or accepted.

between hands you can talk about whatever you want and like I have said what like 15 times now. Its not people giving advice to others during hands, Its the person that is deep telling people what they have and how they are playing it so others can learn. We hand 2 TPF'ers on last night but no one went deep enough to give any insight into there play. I cashed the $11 and explained a couple plays I was doing but at not time did I ask anyone to help me out in a play of a hand and I would never. All the players on that skype call are good and respected players throughout the poker community.

there is like 7 people on the line there is no way you could get advice in the limited time you have in the hand, but afterwards is when you get the advice. Expecially if you just busted, you can ask if the shove was correct or not.

most of the time we are making stupid sidebet's anyway, I just see nothing wrong with talking about hands in real time between hands.

What's the point of being on Skype to discuss hands immediately after playing them? How much in depth strategy and discussion can go on in the few moments in between hands? Will the brief discussion lead into someone adjusting their play?

My guess is a video of the tournament (with uninteresting hands edited out) would be much more beneficial than to "ghost" someone. A video combined with in depth discussions about key hands would probably be a hell of a lot better than "ghosting" someone.

If you're honestly not discussing the hand as it is being played out what could possibly be the point (unless this is people just looking for groupies?)

Or maybe I don't understand the benefit.

omg there is a huge benefit from ghosting a good player deep in a tourney, to hear what he is thinking during a hand. Hands are being discussed but they are not being discussed like RD says. No one is telling the guy playing what to do, the guy playing it telling everyone what he is doing and why.

example: Deep in a tourney guy opens on button.
Player: Im going to 3bet shove him here, this is the 3rd time in a row he has open raised. I have a perfect reshoving stack of 19bb and he has to have a very big hand to call me. If he folds I will pick up 5bb which would be about a 25% gain to my stack. If he calls I figure to be no worse then 40/60 dog with a chance of gaining a lot of chips.

its still 1 player per hand, no one is helping him play it, he is just giving us his thought process. This is what most online coachs do with their students. Its much nicer to do it this way then go through hundreds of HH files to help them, plus its also a great group of people to sit around and chat with.

as for talking about hands between them, a player can ask if we thought that shove was +EV and we can discuss it as a group of players why.

For instance we had this hand come up other night, player folded and said im not sure if that was a good fold or I should shove or raise. We spent about 10 minutes discussing the value in raising vs shoving there, some players thought raise/calling was good while others disagreed and though open shoving was only thing you could do. We spent about 20 minutes discussing it, that is same thing that happens in HA here but we get everyones opinions right away instead of waiting days for everyone to post.

tourneys take lots of skill imo.

i'm really not sure why you are trying to defend yourself swa when it is pretty clear that people will discuss hands as they play out. it's not against the rules at stars though fwiw.

if you make the analogy to live poker, this is cheating without question. I think the same thing could be said of HUDs. The point is that online poker and live poker are not the same thing. But since online players are not organized to form a governing body or some kind of codification of rules, the online game is in a bit of a mess right now and so folks tend to fall back on the closest example, which is the accepted rules for live play.

Rinse and repeat.

I'm not saying it dosent happen, I would be a complete moron to try to convince anyone it dosent happen. Im just saying thats not what we do.

Programs like skype, team view and even IM's are the reason online poker gets alot of bad press and why alot of accusations are thrown around on public forums.

IMO its a slippery path to walk down and I wouldn't want to risk it as sites can basically freeze accounts at their whim. Dont get me wrong thou as im not accusing anyone of anything and I can definately see a benefit of using such programs for coaching.

just my 1 penny's worth.