Absolute Poker is rigged... no seriously
 

Trust me, I'm not the guy in the online poker is rigged, but this is some serious shit here.



and if you don't want to wade through that, here's a must read

I left a post on the rigged theory and you left me -rep and called me a retard. So get on board my Short bus:thumbsup:

Haven't "waded" yet, but if this is true, it's the end of Absolute.

OOPS!

Idiots. :talktothehand

Can someone with a little time please summarize this for our forum?

Specifically:

-What's the "proof?"
-Why would Seif make it obvious and risk everything after being a loser for however long? Why not use it sparingly and be a modest winner for the past (and many future) months?
-Has Absolute responded?

Thanks to anyone who digs through all that. I'm off to watch some football before today's WCOOP.

ap is the gayest poker site on the face of the earth.

This seems to mostly stem from some anecdotal "evidence", a few HH's and a PT screenshot.

There's a player that has some pretty strange numbers over a 500 hand sample (from the screenshot). The basis for condemnation here is that over this sample the guy is way ahead, playing a lot of hands and has a river AF of infinity (which means that he never calls a river bet - at least that's what's been posted).

The anecdotal evidence along with the HH's seem to indicate that he always folds the river when behind and bets/raises when ahead including some really strange calls (but why else would they be posted). I don't think it's anything a really bad wouldn't do and the play on the other side sucks too - so...

It's unclear as to whether the player in question is actually seif or not. Seif is mentioned in the early posts, but then never again. Personally I find it hard to believe that any poker pro would be stupid enough to cheat in an obvious fashion. I have no doubt that many would cheat if they could, but I think they're smart enough to be subtle about it.

As for the rest of it - I see no real proof that anything nefarious is going on. Further, there's definitely no evidence that the site itself is at fault or that it's been hacked or has a backdoor to allow someone to see all the hole cards. There may be suspicious behaviour here, but it could just be some nut running good or perhaps his opponents have downloaded some kind of virus that allows him to see their cards (this is perhaps more plausible than the site having a backdoor that was hacked).

The only final weird thing that I just saw is this:

potripper's pokerdb:
Date Buyin Tournament/Event Place Entrants Winnings
9/12/2007 $1,000 NL Hold'em 1 98 $30,000.00
7/5/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 234 234 —
7/5/2007 $50 NL Hold'em 140 148 —

That's pretty strange, of course I can't verify that anything I've read is actually true at all.

I think the hype level went way up this because 2+2 moved the original thread to the mod forum so no one could see it - I think they've released all the posts by now though.

I got most of this information from the FCP forum which is outquoting sections of the 2+2 thread.

ty de-coder. +Rep for the summary.

de-coder's summary isn't very accurate. doesn't seem like he read the entire thread, or in that fact any of the hands. Just read this post, and ask yourself if you think there isn't anything up.

And read this thread in the high stakes limit forum

to avoid scandal I will ask a somewhat muddled question. I skimmed these threads and didn't see this stated, so I ask is the named pro from the internettexasholdem link in the OP thought to be the person behind the suspicious accounts named in the 2+2 threads?

btw I think the most damning bit of evidence was stated by someone I am too lazy to refind and link. But the point was that the high stakes limit forums are filled with conspiracy threads and each one of them has been shot down immediately. This appears to be the first one that has legs and no valid detractors other than "meh just a lucky fish I guess".

Second most damning bit of evidence (granted, from several different small samples-maybe >3k hands total), AF per street for these players (who run something like 70/55 preflop, SD maybe 35% and W$SD +60%-those stats being the third most damning evidence) is 3/3/>20, like they never, ever, call the river.

That's what I find the most interesting. Individually, the HHs are goofy, yes, but I see goofy stuff all the time. Check the Beats and Brags section for tons of examples.

But postflop aggression factor that goes 3/3/20+ is just nuts. No one plays (the river) that perfectly.

I didn't read all the 2+2 thread, as I said I got most of the info from the FCP thread on the topic (as far as I know it's never been closed or modified by moderators). As for hands - I looked at a number of samples that were posted (including the ones you referenced and others), but 2 points:

1) I can look through my PT and find a bunch of weird calls and bad plays too (there's even a good sample in the hand discussion forum here)... That isn't really evidence. I did look at the 3 hands in the link you posted, but they don't prove anything other than none of these people play very well.
2) as I stated, I'm unable to verify whether these things are true or not.

My view is that there isn't enough actual, verifiable, evidence to prove whether AB was hacked or whether someone (or some group of people) have access to all the hole cards. Some people have chosen to cash out of AB, others haven't.

I don't, and haven't ever, played there. If you play there and this makes you uncomfortable, which is certainly a valid view, then stop.

This is the kind of thing that get all the conspiracy theorists worked up into a frenzy, particularly since 2+2 seemed to close the topic to the public for a short time (but that isn't evidence either).

FYI - I have sent an email to AB, with links to several threads, and have requested comment. I'm not holding my breath on that though, but it will be interesting to see how much traction this story needs before they are forced to respond. FWIW, I've been unable to find any reference to these fraud reports on their website - but I'll keep an eye out.

I'd like to point out that although his numbers are goofy (and they are) - I was only able to find references to pretty small samples (<550 hands). Also, just because he has a really high AF on the river doesn't mean he's playing the river perfectly - he's clearly playing it in a raise/fold fashion, but that could be a strategy. There's no evidence to indicate that he's always raising with the best and folding the worst - there are lots of anecdotal stories to the affect, but no actual proof. I think that only AB would be able to find that proof by looking at all the actual hands played and seeing if he plays a perfect river.

I can provide an example - this is one of the hands posted as proof from the 2+2 forum:

Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot

This is supposed to prove that potripper was able to see crazymarcos cards - I don't think it does, but some people on 2+2 think it does. There are other hands as bad as this one... He might just suck people... I honestly think that if this were happening at a lower limit we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't know that that hand singlehandedly PROVES anything, but it's a valid piece of the puzzle. If this guy has the best hand EVERY time he puts money in on the river (excluding failed bluffs, which should also be easy to spot), that's something. And if he's never calling on the river with the worst hand, that means something too.

You can't play for very long without having a second best hand on the river. It's just part of the game.

Back to the hand above.... I actually think you could use that as a case against this guy being able to see your hole cards. I mean, if he really could see his opponent's hole cards, would he want to make it "obvious" by making plays like that? Why not fold and wait for a more reasonable spot, or grind your opponent down gradually?

And this is my point exactly - that behaviour has yet to be proven to be the case.

I posted that hand because it was originally posted as proof on 2+2 when it actually proves nothing. It may be part of a pattern, but maybe it isn't - we'll just have to wait and see.

Interesting
 

Lots to digest here, but so far, for me at least, I didn't find any smoking gun. It seems pretty easy to find plenty examples of bizarre hands at High-stakes heads up. (, anyone?)

Someone claiming to be from Absolute has denied everything (), and I'm inclined to believe him. A business (with the at least the potential to) make millions just has too much to lose by letting something like this happen.

Then again, I wouldn't have believed Enron deliberately caused massive brown-outs in California either ...

PokerStars Game #12067296948: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2007/09/15 - 04:16:08 (ET)
Table 'Miriam IV' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Luckycharm84 ($190.60 in chips)
Seat 2: kjell_morten ($576 in chips)
Seat 3: floes ($600 in chips)
Seat 4: jen&jes ($578.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Raidan909 ($621 in chips)
Seat 6: hook2120 ($690.20 in chips)
kjell_morten: posts small blind $3
floes: posts big blind $6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Raidan909 [2d Jh]
jen&jes: calls $6
Raidan909: folds
hook2120: calls $6
Luckycharm84: calls $6
kjell_morten: calls $3
floes: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c 4c 4d]
kjell_morten: bets $18
floes: folds
jen&jes: calls $18
hook2120: calls $18
Luckycharm84: folds
*** TURN *** [8c 4c 4d] [3d]
kjell_morten: checks
jen&jes: checks
hook2120: checks
*** RIVER *** [8c 4c 4d 3d] [6d]
kjell_morten: checks
jen&jes: bets $154
hook2120: raises $512.20 to $666.20 and is all-in
kjell_morten: folds
jen&jes: calls $400.10 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hook2120: shows [6s 6h] (a full house, Sixes full of Fours)
jen&jes: mucks hand
hook2120 collected $1189.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1192.20 | Rake $3
Board [8c 4c 4d 3d 6d]
Seat 1: Luckycharm84 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: kjell_morten (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 3: floes (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: jen&jes mucked [Tc 9c]
Seat 5: Raidan909 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: hook2120 showed [6s 6h] and won ($1189.20) with a full house, Sixes full of Fours

uh?

Just tryin to show that there are idiots who do that shit (call with T high) and lose also

(see one of suspected HH's where hero called with T high to beat opponents 9 high bluff for more info if you're confused)

His point is people make retarded calls with T high. When they are wrong, they are idiots. When they are right, it's because they can see their opponent's hole cards.

I think we all agree that one hand isn't enough evidence to prove anything.... but if the behavior is consistently repeated over hundreds of hands, that's something worth looking into.

He jams it up to 666 holding 66 at a 3/6 table!

This isn't an issue of hacking, this is exploiting people using unholy and demonic powers! That's why there is no trail of hard proof. Get in an exorcist and the problem will be solved!

disclaimer: The above post is not to be taken litterally or as any indication of my belief or disbelief in the claims being made or disputed by any parties. I just find conspiracy theorizin' a wack load of fun. ;)

Life is rigged!

I remember watching an ept broadcast - and after a bad beat the commentator said, "this site is so rigged."

I love it.

I received this reply from AB...

Dear Valued Customer,

Thank you for contacting us.

Yes we are aware of all this posts, we always try to be aware of what our customers, think of our service and if they enjoy playing with us. That’s why we are always checking into all of the concerns that our players have and we have taken actions already in this case, because of our company policies we cant let you know what those actions are, but we can let you know, that it wasn’t any type of hacking, it was just someone who didn’t know how to play poker and a hole lot of luck.


If there is anything else we can assist you with please let us know.

Sincerely,

Jose
Team Absolute ~ Security & Control Department
Phone: 1.877.887.6537
"To Continue to be the best and most trusted"

I noticed late last night on fcp that people were watching this guy (or one of his alleged aliases) "dump chips" off to other people - also allegedly his accounts or his friends.

Could be that he just doesn't know what he's doing and was on the run of his life. Could also be it's all true and this guy was dumping his profit off to other accounts - although I would think that if it were true the account would have been frozen and the funds revoked.

fuck the site being rigged, if they can't write a company email using proper grammar and spelling words correctly they ain't getting my business.

clearly rigged

Welp, that's good enough for me. :rolleyes:

Wow, just wow.

Jose's first language is clearly not english - I suspect it's french. I'm used to dealing with french firsters so it didn't bother me.

Just to be clear, I am not being jingoistic here. Often in my work I have to communicate to folks in languages other than english and you can bet your ass when I do I get a native speaker to review the entire correspondence to confirm all my spelling and grammar, as well as to make sure that I am not missing something in the phrasing or translation. Sometimes we have to pay for this service out of pocket, but it is always worth it. It comes down to valuing your work and the work of others, also known as professionalism.

When a business doesn't value professionalism I think they are revealing a corrupt core.

Absolute Support Responds:

Cliff notes - Investigated, Superaccounts do not exist, Please resume your game.

New interesting details and theories here.

's theory on how all this went down. Pretty awesome reading here.

with cliff notes on what has happened so far.

Nominate Dan Druff
 

For other forum post of the year. I don't know if it is true or not, but it is extremely compelling.

This is so awesome. F5 F5 F5 F5

I'll probably misapply some tidbits, but here is the jist of the recent commotion.

Scott Tom, cofounder of Absolute Poker has had his e-mail address/IP address linked back to him from account #363. This account was seen observing POTRIPPER, the account that somehow made these awesome maniac reads that lead him to victory in the 1k absolute tourney that runs weekly i believe. What is interesting about this is that when account #363 was not observing POTRIPPER, POTRIPPER folded both of the two hands he was not observing. An interesting tidbit considering this guy was literally playing every hand.

As to how people got this information on who was observing, the 2nd place finisher in this tournament thought something was up and asked for the entire hand history for that tournament. What was sent to him was an excel file of every hand in the tournament, along with the ip addresses/email addresss of every player and observer that was at every table. People have done some investigative work over at 2+2 and have found the above information.

Now, why would Scott Tom, cofounder of Absolute Poker, suddenly be cheating people out of money when he sold his company for more than a hundred million dollars? Well, here is the latest theory by :

This is really amazing stuff. That Dan Druff timeline is brilliant. Don't you just love good investigative reporting???

What I find most interesting about this theory (which certainly seems plausible) is that this guy COULD have gotten away with it. He could have created a new account, and SLOWLY (relatively speaking) worked his way up through the ranks. He could have mixed winning and losing sessions, made some bad calls here and there, and never even aroused suspicion. He could have turned himself into an online poker God......... but greed takes over, and people just cna't control themselves.

Then again, maybe he figured he'd be caught sooner or later (or lose his access to account #363), so he decided to try to make as quick of a hit and run as possible.

Either way, this whole #363 thing makes it seem almost certain that something fishy was going on, and shame on Absolute for covering it up (this is givign them the benefit of the doubt and assuming they weren't already aware of this - but they certainly had the means to figure out what was going on when the data was handed to them on a silver platter).

ok, so lets assume you have access to 363 and believe you will for the forseeable future. How do it do it? What levels would you play, what style would you play?

Your first paragraph suggests that the greed might get to you as well. Becoming an online poker God would be the worst thing imaginable, IMO. At what level can you win and expect to get away with it based on the style you are playing?

I think I would start at $400NL HU and work my way up to $1000NL HU and expect to get away with it.
At first thought, NLHU games offer the best opportunity to disguise your cheating and avoid suspicion while maxamizing return. The problem I see with NLHU is that folks might be likely to call down really light at times, so your ability to push folks off of better (albeit crappy hands nonetheless) might be easy to overestimate. But I guess those cases don't really hurt you anyway in the long run. To me the key would be to maxamize my hourly rate while staying relatively anonymous.

I don't really know any of this but I suspect that playing a weird style but perfect on teh river would fly beneath the radar up to $1000NL HU, but above that the players and fanboys might notice.

Well, *I* wouldn't do it.

But if he wanted to fly under the radar, he should have played "normally" - with whatever style he uses - and basically only looked at his opponent's hole cards when he came into tough spots. It would be tough to not look constantly, but that's really the way to do it.... just when you need to decide if you should make that big, marginal call, or if you can push a weak hand and get your opponent to fold because he has air.

And yeah, HU would be the games to focus on. Doing this in a tourney was retarded.

Sort of reminds me of about 10+ years back when a couple of computer guys at a dog track wrote a program to identify all superfecta combos not played and print a ticket from an unused mutuel machine that was time-stamped before the race ran. I'm missing some details, but they got away with it for quite a while until one of their wives or GFs bragged about it.

Just goes to show that the old adage is correct - 3 people can keep a secret as long as 2 of them are dead. :cool:

Mainstream media picks up the story
 

NYT coverage


This is an quality blog, BTW. It's from the guys who wrote Freakonomics, an interesting book/look at the stats, society, and trends.

Cool book. It's sitting behind me on my desk as I type this.

Those guys are into poker, so I'm not surprised they picked up on this story. Last I heard, they were putting together some huge pokernomics project. I think I posted about it here a while ago. Yeah, here it is:

I just want to say I was in this tournament, and actually at the alleged cheater's table.

'POTRIPPER' probably played over 60% of the hands, and of the 60% he played, probably won around 80%. About 30 minutes into the game, there was actually rumbling at the table that he was cheating. On Pocketfives, there was a post showing his hands and the hands of us at the table, and strangely, whenever he had cards that didn't match the limpers, he'd always play. He would always sniff out a bluff and the only time POTRIPPER lost a large pot was when he was ahead on the turn, got all in and lost on the river.

There is no doubt this guy could see the cards.

I hope they close AP, confiscate his funds and return my buy in for this tournament and any other time I played with him or any of the other alleged cheaters.

:twocents:

post your HH or it didnt happen. Just sayin.

Article in .

This is interesting, The HH Spreadsheet has been interpreted and put into a pfx hand viewer and put on youtube. ENJOY!

lol @ bolded above:rolleyes:

Absolute admits games were compromised.

I like how this TP thread links to 2+2 which links to P5s which links to their own statement. To save all the clicks for everyone else, here it is:

Well done, internet poker investigators!

Nice find. Thanks.

Talk about damning evidence. You'd think they wouldn't be quite so obvious... you know, maybe not playing EVERY SINGLE HAND perfectly.

I'll be very interested to see how this all shakes out... In theory, we will know exactly who was behind this eventually. I wonder what sorts of charges they will end up facing, if anything.