Damn glad I folded this one
 

This would have stung
POKERSTARS GAME #8941370638: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/03/17 - 01:19:06 (ET)
Table 'Posnania' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: vbace1234 ($60.30 in chips)
Seat 2: Norman79 ($49 in chips)
Seat 3: kseej ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 5: I_Rubert ($33.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Robbr25 ($85.65 in chips)
Seat 8: battletoad2 ($50.10 in chips)
battletoad2: posts small blind $0.25
Trapick: is sitting out
vbace1234: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Robbr25 [4h 4s]
Norman79: folds
Trapick leaves the table
kseej: calls $0.50
I_Rubert: calls $0.50
Robbr25: calls $0.50
battletoad2: raises $3 to $3.50
dsrowqf joins the table at seat #6
vbace1234: folds
kseej: folds
I_Rubert: calls $3
Robbr25: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c Qs Qh]
battletoad2: checks
I_Rubert: bets $2
vbace1234 leaves the table
battletoad2: calls $2
*** TURN *** [4c Qs Qh] [Qc]
battletoad2: bets $8
I_Rubert: calls $8
*** RIVER *** [4c Qs Qh Qc] [Jc]
battletoad2: bets $20
I_Rubert: calls $20 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
battletoad2: shows [Ah Ac] (a full house, Queens full of Aces)
I_Rubert: shows [4d Qd] (four of a kind, Queens)
I_Rubert collected $65.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $68.50 | Rake $3
Board [4c Qs Qh Qc Jc]
Seat 1: vbace1234 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Norman79 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kseej folded before Flop
Seat 5: I_Rubert showed [4d Qd] and won ($65.50) with four of a kind, Queens
Seat 7: Robbr25 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 8: battletoad2 (small blind) showed [Ah Ac] and lost with a full house, Queens full of Aces

I would've called preflop.

I would have raised preflop.

I usually would too, but the raiser is a mouse, so I figured he was strong.
Just felt bad mojo coming if you know what I mean.

Initially, yes.

I wouldn't have called because I thought 22 was good.

Yes raise was my initial thinking (and usual play),
but I decided to switch it up and play the position after the flop.
Not the best play with 44, but I am damn glad I did not.

You sure do think like a winning player.

Continuous shuffle. Would have been a different board if you have played the hand.

That doesn't matter though, because he didn't play the hand.

Uh... ok.... so why is he glad that he folded then, if he's not paying attention to the board cards?

*sigh*

whatever man

LOL - Did you miss the subject of this thread? Or this line:

I know you're a smart guy, so don't pretend to not understand how this whole "continuous shuffle" works. Had he played this hand. the board cards would have been different, so nothing would have stung.

I know you understand this.

Will you guys let this continuous shuffle thing go, gees.
From now on I will take out the Online stuff and say it was live.

Funny. :thumbsup:

You know, I'm wondering what your beliefs in free will depend on.

There's a great book on the idea that we, as humans, don't have free will. This is because when we look back at the choices that we may have had...we can't prove that they were really plausible.

Sure, we could say that we had the ability to choose the other option, but was it really there? This idea continues to say that free will is purely a chemical induced idea within our brains that makes us happier as humans.

Our brain fools us into thinking we had free will by creating other possible choices different from our intended path.

What's to say if he had played the hand, the flop would've been different? It could've been the same. It also could've been 44x or AAx or 555 or any number of a million different flops.

Then again, what does it matter if the flop would've been different or not?

Umm... I think you are missing the point here. Since apparently you are Im going to spell this out.

- Read the title of this thread. "DAMN GLAD I FOLDED THIS ONE" It is titled this because of the fact that this specific flop hit, and would have caused him to flop 4's full of queens, and lose to queens full of fours (eventually four of a kind)

- TP is saying that he shouldn't think this way, because had he called the flop would have been different (random shuffle), so the comment "Damn Glad I folded This One" isnt applicable.

And that is why it matters if the flop would have been different

Very nice/interesting other part of your post though. I've often had some similiar (drunken) discussions about that very topic

I understand what is being said. I understand that is a somewhat false way of looking at it. But, what's to say the flop would've been different? It could've been the same if he played the hand too. It also could've been 44x.

It's silly to bring up the idea of a continuous shuffle causing a different flop without knowing what the other flop would've been. Because you can't prove it would've been a different flop. You can talk of the odds of a random shuffle of a deck causing a different flop that the one previous...but that's not stone cold proof.

Like I said, it's silly to what if yourself to death. (which means it's silly from both sides of looking at this flop)

I'll reply to your other post later - only have a sec now.

It stuns me that you're still not able to wrap your head around this.

Your point of "it could have been the same flop" is perfectly valid... but come on. What's more likely: That a continuously shuffled deck would deal the EXACT same board cards, resulting in the scenario above, or that the same continuously shuffled deck would deal DIFFERENT board cards, making any statements along the line of "Glad I folded this" completely moot?

I know your answer will be that I can't PROVE that the flop would have been different (despite the verifiable mathematics behind it), or more likely that you think it's silly to even think about it this - but I don't get that, since in reality, it's just math. But whatever. If you are more comfortable thinking that a continuously shuffled deck isn't actually changing as it's being shuffled, that's fine, but at least admit that you understand that that's not the case.

Any discussion of the idea of continuous shuffle is the ultimate in results-orientated thinking.

I think it's being worried about something that doesn't matter. In the end, you are being results oriented because the deck didn't end up how you wanted it to or whatever.

It's still a random shuffle of the deck. The odds are still the same as they were before.

I'm personally dumbfounded

I never said I didn't understand what you guys were saying.

I just don't think it matters as much as you guys think it matters.

==================
To add...I think the following is the fundamental difference in how we are going to view this...

Random is random is random.

A random shuffle of the deck is the same as the last random shuffle of the deck is the same as the next random shuffle of the deck. It doesn't change the odds of what card is coming next.

You cant possibly be suggesting that there is an equal chance of this hand being flopped as it not being flopped right?

If you're not that the title of this post "damn glad i folded this one" is pointless, since he (in all liklihood like 1:1000000000) wouldnt have flopped this if he called

I'm saying that worrying about what would've happened if he had called is stupid because he didn't call. Either way.

Finally! Stop rabbit hunting - it's stupid.

1. Why do you think I am worried?
2. How exactly do you think I "wanted" this hand to end up?

What it comes down to is this:

is NOT true, based on the fundamental rules that online poker sites use for shuffling the deck.



Dumbfounded.

But it's ok to say, "this would have stung," when it would have been a completely different hand?

I don't get it. These two concepts are mutually exclusive - either the cards are in a preset order (live poker) or they are not (online continuous shuffle) - and a few of you guys seem to want to pick and choose when to think they are and when they are not.

Who is worried? No one here is worried.

I simply pointed out flawed logic in the OP (a great example that relates back to our original discussion on this), and you did your usual jump down my throat, trying to accuse me of something that is absolutely not true.

I get it. I'm not worried about it. And I understand that random is random. But I also understand what "continuous shuffle" means, and I believe that you do not.

Dude...what the hell?

You take such a defensive stance when you start a discussion. I'm not jumping down your throat...

I said just a second ago that it was silly to say either side because it didn't happen.

Also, a continuous shuffle doesn't change the odds of what cards come out. Each card has the same chance of coming out either way.

And, again...if you are not worried about it...you spend an awful lot of time talking about it. It's like the eejit thing from a while ago...if it doesn't bother you, then why spend so much time talking about?

Ok how bout this then,
If I called a preflop raise and the flop was this
It would have stung.
Gees you people have too much time to waste.

That's definitely something to agree on.

And, I can't begin to say how hurt I am by that statement. Partly because it is hard to convey tone through the internet so I can only base my understanding of what you think about by what is posted on here and partly because I wanna be a guy in his (early 30s? i dunno...just guessing here) that lives in Florida and plays poker for a living and sits in his hot tub after really tough days.

=====

Of course, I think you made a fundamental flaw in getting a pinball machine instead of the classic Galaga/Pacman machine

First, eejit scamming me and RD (I assume that's the thing you are referring to) and then making up lies about it for 6 weeks did bother me. It wasn't so much the money (which he eventually did pay back), it was the lying about it and trying to make me look like the bad guy.

Secondly, you don't need to keep telling me about the odds being the same - please - I get it. I really do.

If my posts seem defensive, it's only because I'm - you know - defending myself when you make comments that don't make sense to me. You say I spend an awful lot of time talking about this, but all I did was make one comment about the OP (which was kind of making the point I was trying to make the other day that certain people didn't seem to follow). That was it - one comment.

You followed this with a comment that didn't make any sense to me (about him not playing the hand :confused:) and then a "whatever man" when I clarified why I made my comment.

The weird thing is, I think we are saying the same thing here. My original comment was basically saying that it's silly to think things like "I'm glad I folded here" - The only difference between what I am saying and what you are saying is because I included WHY it's silly to think like that in my post.

Didn't mean to be hurtful - really. I respect you as a poster (and an intellectual) too much for that. But there have been a few times that I've felt like you were ____ing me (whatever you want to call it) just for the sake of doing it. FWIW though, I respect that you'll speak your mind and not just mindlessly agree with me about something because this is my site.

I'm 32. And I sit in the hot tub after really easy days too. The only reason I'm not in it right now (literally), is because I'm afraid it would really bother my sunburn.

Oh, and most importantly: Pinball >>>>> any classic arcade game(s).

I've said before that I do take viewpoints just for the sake of not agreeing with someone and discussing a different position. Mostly out of an interest to make someone explain where they are coming from instead of just saying their point and dismissing reason.

The internet is a very hard place to discuss sometimes because, for example, when I'm responding to you...it's hard for you to see that I'm watching Sportscenter or South Park drinking some vodka or eating pizza and not really paying attention to how my post may or may not be taken.